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  1. #166
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    This doesn't seem fair or accurate. You're right that new 52 was going to reboot WW, and, due to his pitch, Azzarello was hired to do. But, that shouldn't excuse all the decisions he made to change the character and her world. He doesn't get a free pass to from criticism.
    No, I don't want to say that he is immune to criticism now. I'm just saying that there is distinction between him and Rucka so I don't think that argument "Azz changed things so its fair for Rucka to say that his run didn't happen". Changes were going to happen regardless of who wrote WW after Flashpoint because DC wanted to shake things up, with Rebirth? Not so much, if Rucka wanted he could have added few details here and there and built from Azz's run.

    Similarly, DC decided on a line wide Rebirth. They were going to do it with or without Rucka. They contacted him and discussed bringing a more classic approach back to the character. He isn't making changes for the sake of change - he's mainly restoring what new 52 took from her. That's the difference.
    Well thats again arguable. Circe doesn't look very similar to how she looked/acted before new52 so what exactly he is restoring in this case?

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    If you want to disgregard any possible merits and just blow up Rebirth WW simply out of spite, well, then I doubt there's anything I can say to change your mind. We all feel how we feel about stories and changes and such. I understand the frustration, but, I don't think a repeated cycle of 'blow it up,' especially just out of revenge, helps WW in the long run. At some point, building is better.
    And someone should have told Rucka this.

    Azzarello crafted a good story, but, yes, I feel strongly that it was toxic to the foundation. You don't just paint over cracks in the foundation. You may like that version better, that's your opinion. But, it is not an opinion shared by all WW fans. Even the sales of it, while consistently good, ended up 10,000 less than were Rebirth sales are now.

    Just as DC thought it best to allow Azzarello to make changes, they gave Rucka the opportunity to restore a more classic WW.
    Azzarello also wrote the book for alot longer than Rucka will, about 3-4 times as long actually, so fatigue hasn't set in yet.

    But for what reason? Azzarello came on board when the book was a tank in terms of sales, writers came and went with the seasons and stories were all over the place. Then came Flashpoint and everything was blown sky high so he had a clean slate to work from and was given the time and space to do what he wanted. The book stabilized. So whats the reason Rucka was allowed this?

    And, btw, you do a rather poor job of trying to speak for me. I have read a good amount of Marston. And, yes, I do care about the Amazons and what happens to them. No, I'm not asking for the "Snow White" treatment; I've never even asked for "perfect" Amazons. Feel free to tilt at that windmill, but you aren't speaking for me.
    Then perhaps you'd like to make an argument for why these old Amazons are better?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    So if I understand it correctly, Azzarello didn't have to change anything in nu52 (Amazons, Hippolyta, origin) but he did despite all the world building that had gone on before. Plenty of other characters in nu52 remained primarily intact, but he took a convenient excuse to do something he otherwise couldn't.

    Along comes Rebirth, and Rucka is told to bring Wonder Woman back, with DC acknowledging that Azzarello's Diana wasn't working.
    Azzarello was provided a clean slate to work from in order to fix a franchise that had been broken for years and half a dozen writers had already failed to right the ship with the existing material. So no, remaining on the same track was not an option. And it would be rather dim to stay there when Flashpoint had conveniently pushed the big reset button on the whole universe, leaving only the 2 biggest sellers relatively untouched.

    Thats not what DC said, what DC said was that they didn't think Johns' Daisy McSwordboobs or Finch's Dimwit was the right way to go. And again it's nice to invoke Rebirth as a reason... it would just carry some actual weight if Diana had anything to do with it.

    He brings her back to her original roots, preferring the 70 year world building and ignoring the changes made by Azzarello in nu52 - a completely different timeline that has been wiped away. It was an artificial five years that replaced the 'true' 10 years of the DCU.
    It's a pity that he hasn't though. What he's done is have Scott paint us a lovely picture that reminds us of how things used to be, and then forget to actually flesh it out, leaving us to guess what these new Amazons are actually like or why they are there.

    How is it that what Azzarello did was fine and dandy, but Rucka's decision to re-create the old WW universe in Rebirth is somehow wrong for him to do?
    Because Azzarello had Flashpoint at his back, and a broken franchise to fix. What's Rucka's excuse?

  3. #168
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I have been a vigorous defender of Brian Azzarello, on these boards. You all know that.

    He gave the WW comic a truly memorable, delightfully quirky, supporting cast in Zola, Hera, Lord Hermes and, for awhile, Orion, and I think he gets far too little credit for that. [I still think Aleka should be a regular supporting character in this comic]. He also gave Wonder Woman TWO archnemeses for the ages: a first-class, apocalyptically motivated terror, the First Born, and the sadistic, complex Cassandra the Mad. However, Mr. Azzarello, in my opinion, made a very poor use of the time that he had on the title - he had over three YEARS and left very little to show for it - while Greg Rucka has made significantly more satisfactory use of his time, leaving us with similar contributions.

    At the time of its publication, Azzarello's "Blood, Guts, Iron and War and Etc." was, hands down, one of the greatest Wonder Woman stories ever told. You can take the Azzarello-Chiang trades Blood and War and throw the rest in the garbage, ..and you have something that stands a head above any WW comics, since George Perez left, at the end of the 80s - yes, ..even above Gail Simone's inspired run. In spite of that, if only because of Mr. Rucka's respect for what came before him and for us, the fans, ..I think Mr. Rucka's being favored over Mr. Azzarello makes a great deal of sense to most of us...

    And, frankly, is entirely justified.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 04-20-2017 at 04:06 AM.
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  4. #169
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    One reader's take...

    If I had not read Rucka essentially duck what he was planning to do in the interviews leading up to his run, this would be less of an issue.
    See...I felt the same way about Azzarello who said he wasn't going to change or reboot her origin.

    Similarly, actually coming up with something better than "It Was All Lies" when that particular chapter was addressed would have helped.
    Yet that is *exactly* the answer Azzarello gave us - the origin story fans had loved for decades was all lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    I think the "problem" is that with New52 WW was getting rebooted either way so Azz was given clean page and did what he did. He didn't really contradict or wash away anything since, by DC's editorial decision, there wasn't anything anymore.
    And yet not a single first tier hero (not a legacy hero) had their origin altered or their supporting cast completely discarded. Superman's parents had both passed, but he was still Kal El from Krypton raised in Smallville, moved to Metropolis, etc.

    Maybe if we got someone else instead of Azz then maybe some people would have liked it better
    Honestly, I wouldn't have cared who wrote it - changing Diana's origin so drastically, calling her in the course of the book naive for having believed what so many of us loved and changing the nature of the Amazons and Themyscira just don't sit well with me and with others who were fans of the character's original origin and history.

    With Rucka it looks like DC editors didn't really decide anything and it was up to him to change (or not change) what he wants or doesn't want.
    Based off of interviews, I disagree. He was told by DC editorial to bring back the original character since the new one didn't work so well.

    This decision for Azz was made by others, from all signs it looks like Rucka made this decision himself.
    According to Azzarello, the origin change, the Amazons and the gods were all his plan and idea from the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    No, I don't want to say that he is immune to criticism now. I'm just saying that there is distinction between him and Rucka so I don't think that argument "Azz changed things so its fair for Rucka to say that his run didn't happen". Changes were going to happen regardless of who wrote WW after Flashpoint because DC wanted to shake things up, with Rebirth? Not so much, if Rucka wanted he could have added few details here and there and built from Azz's run.
    Azzarello cast 70 years of history as 'lies' that were told to Diana. I saw Rucka's story of 'Lies' where he refers to the version of Azzarello's Amazons as a 'parody' to be a 'turnabout is fair play' move. Azzarello declared the original origin a lie, so Rucka declared the new Amazons a lie.

    Keep in mind, the history of the DCU *did* change with Rebirth. The five years of the nu52 were declared artificial, having replaced the *real* 10 year DC history which has now been restored.

    In other words, Azzarello was given leave to do what he chose, but Rucka was told to essentially restore Diana to something more akin to her original origin and history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Azzarello also wrote the book for alot longer than Rucka will, about 3-4 times as long actually, so fatigue hasn't set in yet.
    He also wrote monthly, not twice a month. 36 issues versus 25 seems more relevant.

    But for what reason? Azzarello came on board when the book was a tank in terms of sales, writers came and went with the seasons and stories were all over the place. Then came Flashpoint and everything was blown sky high so he had a clean slate to work from and was given the time and space to do what he wanted. The book stabilized. So whats the reason Rucka was allowed this?
    Actually, the numbers hadn't stabilized.

    Azzarello debuted at 76K with a new number 1 and a new universe to play with (nu52) This was up from the 29K the book had been the month before. When Azzarello's run was finished it was down to 36K.

    And the Finches? They ended their run at 29K.

    Rucka's WW #1 with the Rebirth universe sold 107K. It's currently selling 48K.

    So WW went from 29K to 107K. That's why Rucka was allowed to do this.

    Then perhaps you'd like to make an argument for why these old Amazons are better?
    Because (a) they are a return of the supporting cast established by Perez and, imo, pointlessly eliminated by Azzarello, but more importantly, (b) 'Paradise' is an absolutely essential element of Diana's origin, and it was one of the things I really did not like about what Azzarello did.

    Hal Jordan's father died in a plane crash, Bruce Wayne's parents were shot, Kal-El's parents and his entire planet were blown up, etc. These are heroes born from adversity who rose above their tragic back stories to become heroes.

    Diana was created to be different. Diana chose to *give up* paradise in order to help others. She walked away from love and beauty and family in order to try to bring peace to the outside world.

    Change the Amazons and paradise and you change who she is at her core. Hers is a story of personal sacrifice, not tragedy.

    Azzarello was provided a clean slate to work from in order to fix a franchise that had been broken for years and half a dozen writers had already failed to right the ship with the existing material. So no, remaining on the same track was not an option. And it would be rather dim to stay there when Flashpoint had conveniently pushed the big reset button on the whole universe, leaving only the 2 biggest sellers relatively untouched.
    Which other non-legacy hero had their origin drastically altered, their entire supporting cast changed/thrown out and their entire history rewritten for nu52?

    Rebirth disposes of the nu52 as a false timeline with the 10 year 'true' history restored. Just as much of a fresh start as Azzarello except with the caveat that the DC heroes are returning to their roots. Green Arrow and Black Canary are back together again as are Lois and Clark for example, two relationships that had been completely removed in nu52.

    It's a pity that he hasn't though. What he's done is have Scott paint us a lovely picture that reminds us of how things used to be, and then forget to actually flesh it out, leaving us to guess what these new Amazons are actually like or why they are there.
    We've seen more of the Amazons and who/what they are in the past year than in the three years where we got a story by Hephaestus about the nature of the Amazons, a nasty Aleka, an adulterous, lying Hippolyta and then 30 issues of stone and snakes.

    Because Azzarello had Flashpoint at his back, and a broken franchise to fix. What's Rucka's excuse?
    Rebirth, lousy sales, fan complaints about the sword wielding Diana and murderous Amazons, etc.

  5. #170
    Fantastic Member Joao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post

    Well thats again arguable. Circe doesn't look very similar to how she looked/acted before new52 so what exactly he is restoring in this case?
    Hmmm kinda. As I said before, he has a sharp eye to what can work and what cannot. I really don't get the complaints about Circe's look since she was just a generic witch before. Now the still has ancient ornaments, but matched with modern elements. And she still has the bold personality and no pity regarding men. The main aspects are there, aren't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Interesting point, so how do we do it? Take half the run and set it up as foundation while ignore rest of it?
    No exactly ignore. Year One and Godwatch are the beginnings: they show these handful of events that define characters forever. Cale, Cyber, Barbara Ann, Wonder Woman, the amazons, even the gods, they're all affected by them. They seemed like an explanation of the present days when announced, but became so much more. The Lies and Tthe Truth, on the other hand, are more like "this is the chaos where we are now". Once eveything is put into place, they will move on.

    So The Lies and The Truth are not to be ignored, but their end will be the starting point for new writers. No more Diana in rehab or searching for Themyscira, that will be over. But Year One and Godwatch will always be the beginnings, because they establish the roles and motivations of these characters in the story. And that cannot be changed or forgotten.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joao View Post
    Hmmm kinda. As I said before, he has a sharp eye to what can work and what cannot. I really don't get the complaints about Circe's look since she was just a generic witch before. Now the still has ancient ornaments, but matched with modern elements. And she still has the bold personality and no pity regarding men. The main aspects are there, aren't they?



    No exactly ignore. Year One and Godwatch are the beginnings: they show these handful of events that define characters forever. Cale, Cyber, Barbara Ann, Wonder Woman, the amazons, even the gods, they're all affected by them. They seemed like an explanation of the present days when announced, but became so much more. The Lies and Tthe Truth, on the other hand, are more like "this is the chaos where we are now". Once eveything is put into place, they will move on.

    So The Lies and The Truth are not to be ignored, but their end will be the starting point for new writers. No more Diana in rehab or searching for Themyscira, that will be over. But Year One and Godwatch will always be the beginnings, because they establish the roles and motivations of these characters in the story. And that cannot be changed or forgotten.
    Circe was only a generic witch in the new 52. She interacted with the modern world just fine in post crisis. She just did it as someone who was also really old

  7. #172
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    I like that Rucka hasn't touched the "clay vs babydaddy" origin element.

    Mostly cause it's not relevant to Diana's mission.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    He also wrote monthly, not twice a month. 36 issues versus 25 seems more relevant.
    The relevant figure is 1 year vs 3.

    Actually, the numbers hadn't stabilized.

    Azzarello debuted at 76K with a new number 1 and a new universe to play with (nu52) This was up from the 29K the book had been the month before. When Azzarello's run was finished it was down to 36K.

    And the Finches? They ended their run at 29K.

    Rucka's WW #1 with the Rebirth universe sold 107K. It's currently selling 48K.

    So WW went from 29K to 107K. That's why Rucka was allowed to do this.
    Most books shed readers constantly unless they keep doing something new and exciting to make the next issue essential to the readers.

    So by your own count Rucka has actually shed more readers than Azzarello did in terms of numbers, and actually shed more when looking at percentages.

    So we traded in a solid foundation for a mini reboot and a one off sales bump... spectacular. I guess in a couple of months we will be getting another one when the numbers have degraded again.


    Because (a) they are a return of the supporting cast established by Perez and, imo, pointlessly eliminated by Azzarello, but more importantly, (b) 'Paradise' is an absolutely essential element of Diana's origin, and it was one of the things I really did not like about what Azzarello did.
    A) Azzarello not using them may actually have had some meaning if there hadn't been like 20 writers since Perez who largely if not completely ignored them. B) Define what Paradise is in this context.

    Hal Jordan's father died in a plane crash, Bruce Wayne's parents were shot, Kal-El's parents and his entire planet were blown up, etc. These are heroes born from adversity who rose above their tragic back stories to become heroes.

    Diana was created to be different. Diana chose to *give up* paradise in order to help others. She walked away from love and beauty and family in order to try to bring peace to the outside world.

    Change the Amazons and paradise and you change who she is at her core. Hers is a story of personal sacrifice, not tragedy.
    Jordan loosing has father has about as much bearing on his super-heroics as the color of his underpants, it's not what drives him, so I don't know why you add him to this? Neither is the loss of Krypton what drives Superman.

    The 'giving up' part hasn't been part of the story for 30 years, and before that it was barely respected by anyone. So for me personally that she's doing what she is doing out of her own good heart and sense of adventure is much more appealing than some vague Jesus analogy.

    Change the Amazons and you don't change a damn thing because they are not Diana, just like you don't change a thing about Batman if you found out his parents were drug addicts. All you've done really is change 'because of' to 'in spite of'.

    Which other non-legacy hero had their origin drastically altered, their entire supporting cast changed/thrown out and their entire history rewritten for nu52?
    Superman, Flash, Phantom Stranger, Spectre, Everyone on Earth 2, Hawkman, everyone who was added to the NTT cast, all of the New Gods...

    Rebirth disposes of the nu52 as a false timeline with the 10 year 'true' history restored. Just as much of a fresh start as Azzarello except with the caveat that the DC heroes are returning to their roots. Green Arrow and Black Canary are back together again as are Lois and Clark for example, two relationships that had been completely removed in nu52.
    And maybe one day we will get to know what was actually in those 10 years... or maybe not since we were never told what was in the 5 year gap of the New 52, so thanks for a great big load of truthful nothing. And 'returning to their roots' is automatically a great thing, considering when we left them the last time, they weren't exactly prime?
    Speaking of those couplings... why could Rucka not have done something like that? Why could he not simply BUILD on what was already there? GA and BC retain the stuff they have been going through these last years, the great Lemire run and the horrid Nocenti. Superman simply merged his old and new selves sacrificing nothing. And yet Rucka for all his talent decided the best thing he could do was wipe the past out and say it never existed... why the hell did he think this was a good solution?!

    We've seen more of the Amazons and who/what they are in the past year than in the three years where we got a story by Hephaestus about the nature of the Amazons, a nasty Aleka, an adulterous, lying Hippolyta and then 30 issues of stone and snakes.
    Have you now? Where would this be then? 2 issues of Scott's drawings where nothing happened or were revealed beyond what you needed to know to get Steve back off the island?

    Rebirth, lousy sales, fan complaints about the sword wielding Diana and murderous Amazons, etc.
    Not an excuse, blame Finch, totally irrelevant.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post

    Azzarello debuted at 76K with a new number 1 and a new universe to play with (nu52) This was up from the 29K the book had been the month before. When Azzarello's run was finished it was down to 36K.

    And the Finches? They ended their run at 29K.

    Rucka's WW #1 with the Rebirth universe sold 107K. It's currently selling 48K.

    So WW went from 29K to 107K. That's why Rucka was allowed to do this.
    Those numbers are a little misleading. Rucka has the benefit of $2.99 cover price. Can't remember how much comics were when new 52 came out but that lower price point sure helps. Not to mention WW has had more exposure after BVS and with her own movie coming out that might have boosted her popularity as well. One can even go further and mention that there less DC titles Rucka had to compete with as it seemed that DC pared down the monthly titles.

  10. #175
    Astonishing Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    How many complaints for the poor Azzarello. I wonder what people would have thinked if he had followed his original plans instead...

    Azzerello called him in January of 2011 to ask if he want to collaborate on Wonder Woman. Chiang had no idea until March during a dinner with Dan Didio at WonderCon that Wonder Woman would be part of the massive DC Comics “New 52” reboot. That reboot changed the team’s plans for Wonder Woman.

    "Originally we wanted to embrace all of Wonder Woman’s publishing history, so she was a lot older than she looked. We were going to have her around in the 40’s as a crazy European folk tale fighting Nazi’s. Steve Trevor would now be an old man, and she would be there for him in the hospital as he died. But with the New 52 reboot all the WW II stuff went away which I missed. It would have been great to do a 1940s or 1960s Wonder Woman."

    He also notes the book was supposed to be more mature targeting a “Teen Plus” rating. That changed when DC Comics decided all books featuring the Justice League would be “All Ages” although the first issue, which opens with a nude Wonder Woman and some intense violence, was written and prepared before that edict was issued. Chiang posted an unused promotional piece on his blog a few years ago that speaks to the more mature approach (see here).

    http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/...nder-woman-you
    Last edited by Last Son of Krypton; 04-20-2017 at 01:12 PM.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    How many complaints for the poor Azzarello. I wonder what people would have thinked if he had followed his original plans instead...
    A Vertigo-like Wonder Woman run, huh? (Cool! Like in 1987 with Karen Berger as the editor!) What a pity we'll never see it materialized... x 100



    Now, about the original reason this topic was created, I'm re-using to the bullet points given by Outside_85 with one major inclusion.

    The Amazons: They're back to the place they were 30 years ago, more or less. Distressing. They could still be made interesting, just as they were under Pérez and (some) successors, but the next writer has to address the clear issue of Themiscyra's water reserves presenting high concentrations of Fentanyl.

    Cheetah: Once, I was incredibly disappointed any time I saw poor Cheetah being used as a luxury jobber when she was lucky and as a jobber tout court when she wasn't. For years I've been waiting for a writer to do something that could correct that and stop my suffering. Rucka kind of accomplished that, since after 20 issues of Dr. Minerva being more of a central character than Diana I permanently stopped caring about her, so whatever happens to her in the future, it won't be my concern anymore.

    Etta Candy: I'd compare her characterization to a piece of cardboard but that would be an insult to cardboard. Is Etta's Rebirth persona the final result of some sort of bet? In particular, that he would've been able to write a character that was so lacking in everything that would make her even remotely -- I won't say "interesting", let's settle for "tolerable"? That he could go for even less than uni-dimensional? I just have to look to an FPS/strategic game with no story mode like Rainbow Six: Siege. With 30 second character trailers and four or five sentences uttered during gameplay the developers created military-type characters that are a quintillion times more compelling than Major Candy And The Never-ending Spotlight On Her Freckled Cheeks.

    Veronica Cale: The only interesting part of this Veronica Cale reimagined as another victim of male oppression (that's the only thing I got from her, seriously) is of course the one we're never shown: the time she spends washing away the funny faces drawn with an indelible marker on her daughter's face by cheeky individuals! I know I could never resist. Look at her: she's just begging to be used as a canvas!

    Poison: Poison? Poison, poison... isn't that a Street Fighter character? I knew of a Dr. Poison appearing on the pages of Wonder Woman, but that was a long time ago! Nope, not seen her for at least a decade, I swear!

    Dr. Cyber: As a human being, she was the least intelligent technological "genius" I had ever seen on an American comic book. As a computer program, she had her menace factor pretty much annihilated from her first appearance. There's a noticeable difference between a character who has pervasive or extremely noticeable personality quirks, but remain steadily employed because they are simply just that good at what they do and one who goes from flying on a cartoony single-propeller dressed as Amelia Earhart to pretending (unsuccessfully) to be a poor man's Engineer from Authority.

    Deimos/Phobos: These reinventions are clearly too bare-bones to be considered interesting and clearly too random in their interactions with characters and importance to the plot to stand out even in this barely holding together storyline. What is the point of these characters???

    Urzkalamadamadingdong: He's scared of girls. He's. Scared. Of. Girls. Plus, he looks like the cousin Swamp Thing doesn't like speaking of. The moment he's turned into bio-fuel will always be too late, as far as I'm concerned.

    The Patrons: Treating the Gods of Greek mythology as the animal companions of a princess that is even more lacking in the personality department than the least developed Disney princesses redefines the very concept of waste. Also, pulling Freakin' Ferdinand and his magical mind-healing powers into the storyline being preferred to showing a single panel of Athena from Rucka's first run should be considered a crime against professional writing.

    Circe: Aaaaaaand... with one -- ONE!! -- issue where she appeared in, Mr. Rucka has cost the daughter of Helios the status as Wonder Woman's arch-nemesis for another decade! Splendid job, as always!

    Ares: Azzarello's was better. Pérez's was better. This is on par with Simone's Ares: abysmal.

    DIANA: Poor, poor, poor Diana... In the end those horrible people succeeded, despite the events of 2011 having rekindled some hope in me and others. Now you're exactly what they wanted you to be: a glorified symbol standing for nothing.

    So yeah, a lot of goners and a few that can be salvaged if they undergo some major retooling. Clearly a solid foundation for many more years of amazing stories to come!

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Azz's run it always seem sexist. I mean all the female supportin gods and many others were weak or not helpful. Always losing. Look at Artemis or Cassandra. Pershonse hades's wife is shown weak and scared. Not peaceful or strong. So despite more interesting details women weren't his best. The amazons should be flawed but not savages.I do love Hera and Zola. I just didn't like Zola being Athena and what the finches did. I thought it would be going on a reform for paradise island and Olympus but no return to starus quota


    Despite the dislikes we shouldn't be a restart because there will be not stability in Diana. I mean too many stories Diana has forgertten w character she already met or can't get home. Once rucka is done we don't have to see Cale again m. I do think someone should make Posion more stay on her own and give us more Dr.Posion. Dr.Cyber could work stay alone too. I don't know I through it was good to only see the gods in animal form and we don't see again since how heavy focus Azz's run was.


    Circe in some myths was also the daughter of Hecate the goddess of magic and witchcraft
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 04-20-2017 at 03:17 PM.
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  13. #178
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    See...I felt the same way about Azzarello who said he wasn't going to change or reboot her origin...
    He didn't change it; he left it entirely intact, as a myth.

    He didn't reboot anything. She still comes from That Blamed Island, which used to be so special, when writers used it more sparingly.
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    Ultimate Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    He didn't change it; he left it entirely intact, as a myth.
    The word you're looking for is "LIE."

    He didn't reboot anything. She still comes from That Blamed Island, which used to be so special, when writers used it more sparingly.
    Neither Marston, nor any prior writer, established that the Amazons are murdering thugs who abused Diana in her childhood and wanted to kill every man with whom they crossed paths.

    That's rebooting. There is no getting around it.

    And Azz didn't make "That Blamed Island" any more special. He turned it into one more "Land That Time Forgot," populated by a bunch of generic savage warrior people who are never shown as having advanced one inch past the Bronze Age (of history, not comics.) He kept the advanced technology gone. He took away the magic. He took away the unique and interesting society. He turned it into a giant bowl of "Bland" with a side order of more "bland."
    Last edited by Vanguard-01; 04-20-2017 at 03:52 PM.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  15. #180
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joao View Post
    Hmmm kinda. As I said before, he has a sharp eye to what can work and what cannot. I really don't get the complaints about Circe's look since she was just a generic witch before. Now the still has ancient ornaments, but matched with modern elements. And she still has the bold personality and no pity regarding men. The main aspects are there, aren't they?

    No exactly ignore. Year One and Godwatch are the beginnings: they show these handful of events that define characters forever. Cale, Cyber, Barbara Ann, Wonder Woman, the amazons, even the gods, they're all affected by them. They seemed like an explanation of the present days when announced, but became so much more. The Lies and Tthe Truth, on the other hand, are more like "this is the chaos where we are now". Once eveything is put into place, they will move on...
    I don't understand this, either. Are things so bad, as they are? I think future writers can build on all of it and create from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    The word you're looking for is "LIE."...

    Neither Marston, nor any prior writer, established that the Amazons are murdering thugs who abused Diana in her childhood and wanted to kill every man with whom they crossed paths.

    That's rebooting. There is no getting around it.

    And Azz didn't make "That Blamed Island" any more special...
    He got rid of That Blamed Island, long enough to make some of us actually miss it. That felt pretty SPECIAL to me!

    And a myth is not a "LIE" - a myth is a supernatural explanation for natural phenomena or historical events. I've been reading the real thing, long enough to know the difference. Try that.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 04-20-2017 at 04:07 PM.
    Wonder Woman and the Justice League battle Eviless and her planet-crushing flying saucers in... JUSTICE LEAGUE ATTACKS!

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