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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    How is it an intact if clay origin was to protected Diana? I mean Hippolyta of all people shouldn't have done what she had done. I want them to be flawed but be amazons were all murderds. They didn't stop being murders
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

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  2. #182
    Ultimate Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    He got rid of That Blamed Island, long enough to make some of us actually miss it. That felt pretty SPECIAL to me!
    I certainly never missed "Murderous Savage Island." Can't say anything for the rest of us, of course.

    And a myth is not a "LIE" - a myth is a supernatural explanation for natural phenomena or historical events. I've been reading the real thing, long enough to know the difference. Try that.
    I was reading mythology books before I was reading comic books. I'm well-versed in what a myth is.

    Azz gets no points for telling Diana's real origin, then laughing and going "LOL! Just kidding! That was stupid! Now HERE'S what really happened."

    And it's only a "myth" from our perspective. From Diana's perspective, it was a lie. Period.

    That's not making Diana's true origin into a "myth" in order to show respect to it. That's throwing away 70 years of history to replace it with his "better" version.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  3. #183
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    How is it an intact if clay origin was to protected Diana? I mean Hippolyta of all people shouldn't have done what she had done. I want them to be flawed but be amazons were all murderds. They didn't stop being murders
    Mr. Azzarello left that beautiful origin story completely intact, ..as a myth. A magnificent legend, within a meta-legend, which is the comic, itself. Why doesn't anyone appreciate that, Mizzy?

    I detest what he did to the Amazons and the violent way he brought Hippolyta and Zeus together, ..like wild dogs. I was one of the first, here, to criticize, and I wasn't very genteel in my criticism, even while praising Azzarello's genius on other aspects of his unfolding story. I said my piece on all of it, many times, ..and have done the same with Mr. Rucka.

    I regret none of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    ...Azz gets no points for telling Diana's real origin, then laughing and going "LOL! Just kidding! That was stupid! Now HERE'S what really happened."

    And it's only a "myth" from our perspective. From Diana's perspective, it was a lie. Period.

    That's not making Diana's true origin into a "myth" in order to show respect to it. That's throwing away 70 years of history to replace it with his "better" version.
    What a gross mischaracterization of the depth Mr. Azzarello added to an already beautiful story! It was a "myth" to the Amazons, who, while surrounded by Greek mythology, ..believed it to be historical fact. Not one Amazon in the story, other than Diana, condemned Hippolyta for what you are calling a lie. Whether you want to accept it or not, what you call a "lie", the characters in story regarded as a myth, ..and, as a myth, Azzarello left the most magical and beautiful aspects of this great story, entirely whole and unchanged.

    In the end, that's all that matters.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 04-20-2017 at 04:35 PM.
    FINALLY! The greatest comic book movie, ever made... The ORIGIN of the GOLDEN AGE WONDER BOY!

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    No, I don't want to say that he is immune to criticism now. I'm just saying that there is distinction between him and Rucka so I don't think that argument "Azz changed things so its fair for Rucka to say that his run didn't happen". Changes were going to happen regardless of who wrote WW after Flashpoint because DC wanted to shake things up, with Rebirth? Not so much, if Rucka wanted he could have added few details here and there and built from Azz's run.


    Well thats again arguable. Circe doesn't look very similar to how she looked/acted before new52 so what exactly he is restoring in this case?
    Both Azzarello and Rucka were hired under a banner of change; both were meant to shake things up. DC didn't name their line-wide initiative Rebirth just to have the next writer take over, the whole purpose was a return to a more classic DC. And, that's exactly what Rucka has done.

    But, if we're all being honest, the real "problem" is not that either writer made changes, it's whether or not we like those changes. It's fine to say you don't care for Rucka's current run; but, it's unfair to blame him for doing what the event was intended to do. Further, the nature of his changes was more of a resoration, primarily of WW's mother and the paradise quality of the island due to the damage caused by the changes Azzarello chose to make. Azzarello's run is the deviation, Rucka's is a return to the norm for WW.

    Could Rucka have used more of Azzarello's run? Sure. But, the same applies to Azzarello; he didn't have to make the changes he chose. If you're going to blame one for change, then you have to blame both. As for the merits of the changes, I'll take Rucka overall every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    ... Azzarello cast 70 years of history as 'lies' that were told to Diana. I saw Rucka's story of 'Lies' where he refers to the version of Azzarello's Amazons as a 'parody' to be a 'turnabout is fair play' move. Azzarello declared the original origin a lie, so Rucka declared the new Amazons a lie.

    Keep in mind, the history of the DCU *did* change with Rebirth. The five years of the nu52 were declared artificial, having replaced the *real* 10 year DC history which has now been restored.

    In other words, Azzarello was given leave to do what he chose, but Rucka was told to essentially restore Diana to something more akin to her original origin and history.

    ...

    Diana was created to be different. Diana chose to *give up* paradise in order to help others. She walked away from love and beauty and family in order to try to bring peace to the outside world.

    Change the Amazons and paradise and you change who she is at her core. Hers is a story of personal sacrifice, not tragedy. ...
    Beautifully said.
    Last edited by Awonder; 04-20-2017 at 05:38 PM.

  5. #185
    Ultimate Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    What a gross mischaracterization of the depth Mr. Azzarello added to an already beautiful story! It was a "myth" to the Amazons, who, while surrounded by Greek mythology, ..believed it to be historical fact. Not one Amazon in the story, other than Diana, condemned Hippolyta for what you are calling a lie. Whether you want to accept it or not, what you call a "lie", the characters in story regarded as a myth, ..and, as a myth, Azzarello left the most magical and beautiful aspects of this great story, entirely whole and unchanged.

    In the end, that's all that matters.
    No, the Amazons didn't condemn Hippolyta for lying them about Diana's origins. They just accepted Diana's "unique origin" as an excuse to abuse her or do nothing as she was abused because of that unique origin.

    And no, the Amazons didn't accept it as a myth either. They accepted it as the unvarnished truth because Hippolyta's lie was apparently good enough that none of them had cause to doubt the truth of her words. They accepted that their queen figured out a way to have a baby, despite her barrenness, and then they proceeded to treat that baby like crap because she was different. If Diana's life on the island was a happy one, she wouldn't have seized the first "ticket" off the island that presented itself and she would have visited more once she left, which the Amazons made it clear she did not do.

    And no, he didn't leave anything in the origin, because he revealed that all the "magical and beautiful aspect of this great story" to be lies. What he did was no different than if the current Superman writer wanted to reveal "Surprise! Krypton never exploded! Jor-El and Lara-El are still alive! And they're leading a Kryptonian invasion fleet to Earth right now! Superman was never a hero. He was genetically programmed from birth to win humanity's trust and then use that trust to render us helpless before the Kryptonian invasion!"
    Last edited by Vanguard-01; 04-20-2017 at 04:50 PM.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  6. #186
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    ...Could Rucka had used more Azzarello's run? Sure. But, the same applies to Azzarello; he didn't have to make the changes he chose. If you're going to blame one for change, then you have to blame both. As for the merits of the changes, I'll take Rucka overall every day.
    There's no reason to think that the First Born never existed or isn't still falling to his doom, this very second, ..after some conflict with Diana that happened in the Rebirth past. It's a shame Mr. Rucka couldn't have saved Aleka, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    No, the Amazons didn't condemn Hippolyta for lying them about Diana's origins. They just accepted Diana's "unique origin" as an excuse to abuse her or do nothing as she was abused because of that unique origin.

    And no, the Amazons didn't accept it as a myth either...
    Of course, they did, Van. Myths are open to interpretation, and you are perfectly entitled to yours. It's a myth. Myth, myth, myth...
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 04-20-2017 at 04:52 PM.
    FINALLY! The greatest comic book movie, ever made... The ORIGIN of the GOLDEN AGE WONDER BOY!

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    And someone should have told Rucka this.


    Azzarello also wrote the book for alot longer than Rucka will, about 3-4 times as long actually, so fatigue hasn't set in yet.

    But for what reason? Azzarello came on board when the book was a tank in terms of sales, writers came and went with the seasons and stories were all over the place. Then came Flashpoint and everything was blown sky high so he had a clean slate to work from and was given the time and space to do what he wanted. The book stabilized. So whats the reason Rucka was allowed this.
    Why? Because DC wanted to. For starters, sales (thank you sales thread):

    Pre-Azzarello:

    WW #609 31,421
    WW #608 32,540
    WW #607 33,053
    WW #606 33,601
    WW #605 35,495
    WW #604 37,405
    WW #603 38,852
    WW #602 38,012
    WW #601 39,672

    Azzarello:





    Rucka:

    WW #8: 66,405
    WW #9: 64,555
    WW #10: 60,815
    WW #11: 58,692
    WW #12: 55,693
    WW #13: 54,589
    WW #14: 52,784
    WW #15: 50,987
    WW #16: 49,921
    WW #17: 48,662
    WW #18: 47,484
    WW #19: 46,745

    Again, Azzarello's sales were consistently very good. But, not so great that, apparently, DC decided they didn't warrant keeping it all going forward. And, Rucka and co have, somewhat, justified that belief in nearly every issue outselling its Azzarello-counterpart.

    But, this isn't really about sales. Nor is it about your imagined rules for events (that DC doesn't share). It's just you complaining, because you liked Azzarello's run better, right? As an opinion, that's fine. We like what we like. But, it doesn't make for a strong argument to discard Rebirth just for spite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colossus1980 View Post
    Those numbers are a little misleading. Rucka has the benefit of $2.99 cover price. Can't remember how much comics were when new 52 came out but that lower price point sure helps. Not to mention WW has had more exposure after BVS and with her own movie coming out that might have boosted her popularity as well. One can even go further and mention that there less DC titles Rucka had to compete with as it seemed that DC pared down the monthly titles.
    All of Azzarello's run sold for the same price. There are lots of other variables, the rise of digital sales, the huge marketing push for New 52, the growing number of Marvel monthly titles on the shelves, etc. It's never a perfect comparison. But, looking at the numbers straight up, Azzarello's run was not some unquestionable gold standard.
    Last edited by Awonder; 04-20-2017 at 05:44 PM.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    There's no reason to think that the First Born never existed or isn't still falling to his doom, this very second, ..after some conflict with Diana that happened in the Rebirth past. It's a shame Mr. Rucka couldn't have saved Aleka, though.
    Sure, it's possible that First Born is still falling. He is an igneous addition to Hera's story. But, beyond that, he's quite dull as his own character. Grrr Smash Grrr Smash. Both he and Alexa were more caricatures than characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Of course, they did, Van. Myths are open to interpretation, and you are perfectly entitled to yours. It's a myth. Myth, myth, myth...
    The problem is not the myth/lie - which is probably the stupidest lie I've ever read - the problem is the why? Hippolyta has to lie because of the affair - which is one of the stupidest couplings I've ever read. I challenge anyone to come up with a more generic and over-used daddy idea. Made all the worse with the generically sexist stuck in time red raging Amazons. Nearly all of Azzarello's changes to the WW myth were male-centric "fixes" that were toxic to the feminist themes that are meant to be the foundation of the character. That's why it's a problem that couldn't be fixed without discarding it.

  9. #189
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Yea . The amazons despite what the Greeks wrote in myths weren't make haters but the Greeks wrote them like that because the amazons were more of a equality society. This is lot a myth. But a fact that has been proven. Azz's hanged were all sexist. Th amazons in what we have found were equal to their men. Not only that but the Greeks wrote about them at times because of how very different their were from Greek women.
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://www.change.org/p/comic-fans-...part-2-back-on

  10. #190
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    The relevant figure is 1 year vs 3.
    Tho' I respect it, that's just your opinion. To me, it's the number of issues, to you it's the time. To each his/her own.

    So by your own count Rucka has actually shed more readers than Azzarello did in terms of numbers, and actually shed more when looking at percentages.
    1. DC didn't fire Azzarello - he left. He had one story he wanted to tell. He told it. He moved on. The Finches continued in the world he set and the numbers continued to slide.

    2. This isn't a 'mini-reboot', it's 25 issues returning the character to her original roots as requested by DC and as has been happening across the Rebirth line.

    3. All issue 1s are a 'one off sales bump'. The decline in sales is consistent with just about every WW writer ever. I'm not saying Rucka is awesome, I'm saying Azzarello wasn't the phenomenal sales boost he's sometimes made out to be. His run followed the sales of just about every WW run, and the nu52 Diana ended up exactly where the pre-52 run left off sales wise.

    A) Azzarello not using them may actually have had some meaning if there hadn't been like 20 writers since Perez who largely if not completely ignored them. B) Define what Paradise is in this context.
    Azzarello reintroduced the Amazons as murderous man-haters, something they had never been before. Many fans who enjoyed Azzarello's run weren't crazy about this aspect, either, and this change alone drove away a number of fans.

    As to Paradise, I'll define it this way - somewhere Diana wanted to stay because she was loved. Azzarello made a point of writing completely the opposite - a Diana who was bullied, who was different, who didn't fit in and who was looking for her 'ticket' off the island. It's a huge difference in the character - one who leaves behind all that they know and love to go help others versus one who flees a home where they don't belong in search of adventure.

    Jordan loosing has father has about as much bearing on his super-heroics as the color of his underpants, it's not what drives him.
    The point is that tragic losses of family and home are a staple in the background of many heroes.

    And you don't think Hal Jordan's father has anything to do with him becoming a Green Lantern? To quote his wiki biography, " As a young child, he idolized his father, a test pilot who worked for Ferris Aircraft. At a very young age, he had to face his greatest fears when his father died in a plane crash right before his eyes." His father is the key to him overcoming his fears as well as his choice of his career as a 'fearless test pilot.'

    But again, my point is that the loss of home, family, friends, etc. is a key element in the history and origin of a number of heroes. Diana always stood out as being from a loving home who gave up peace and tranquility to go fight for what was right.

    The 'giving up' part hasn't been part of the story for 30 years
    Here you and I will have to agree to disagree. She could have lived an immortal life of happiness and love, but instead gave up her immortality and her home to go out and live in the world to help mankind.

    Change the Amazons and you don't change a damn thing because they are not Diana, just like you don't change a thing about Batman if you found out his parents were drug addicts. All you've done really is change 'because of' to 'in spite of'.
    And that's a big difference for some of us.

    You really think Batman's motivations for justice wouldn't change if his parents were criminals? You don't think it would ring a little hollow for him to be setting things to right because of his parents' death if his parents were part of the problem and not innocent victims who represented the 'good' of Gotham?

    I would disagree.

    Superman, Flash, Phantom Stranger, Spectre, Everyone on Earth 2, Hawkman, everyone who was added to the NTT cast, all of the New Gods...
    The New Gods were gone before nu52, and I would hardly consider the Phantom Stranger and Spectre as top tier heroes. Earth 2 had been eliminated and then re-done before nu52, so that leaves us Superman and Flash.

    Superman was still Kal El, still rocketed from Krypton, still raised in Smallville with Lana as his first girlfriend, still raised by the Kents, and still moved to Metropolis and worked at the Daily Planet with Perry, Lois and Jimmy.

    Flash was still Barry Allen, a police scientist who was struck by chemicals bathed in lightning to become the fastest man alive. He still lived in Central City, he still worked for the CCPD, Captain Frye was still around and Iris West is still a local reporter. Yes, he's dating someone new.

    Batman and Green Lantern? Untouched. Aquaman? Other than him and Mera not being married, he's still Arthur Curry, son of a lighthouse keeper and an Atlantean, still King of Atlantis.

    Diana's mother changed in looks and in history - an adulteress as opposed to a sculptor. In the entire run only two or three other Amazons even get names, and they're all new. Amazons are murdering the fathers of their children (who didn't exist before nu52) and Diana's powers no longer come from the gifts of the gods but from being the daughter of Zeus. She no longer was the champion of her people who won the right to leave, but had to flee her home to protect Steve Trevor. Other than the All New Hippolyta and the All New gods, every supporting cast member from the book was gone, from named Amazons to Steve and Etta, etc.

    I'm sorry if I'm not making it clear, but there was a huge difference between the way Diana was handled by Azzarello and the way every other premiere hero at DC (people with their own solo books) was managed, and this was all because it was what Azzarello chose to write.

    As Awonder said - there isn't a difference between the situations, there just seems to be a difference in which version you prefer. I can absolutely respect your preference, but in the case of the nu52, this was the Diana and her story that Azzarello pitched. In the case of Rebirth, this is the Diana that DC wanted back and that Rucka wanted to write.

    And maybe one day we will get to know what was actually in those 10 years... or maybe not since we were never told what was in the 5 year gap of the New 52
    Sorry, I'm not following you here. We saw all 5 years of the Nu52 - that's how long those titles lasted. Across the entire DC universe, all of the titles are filling in the 10 years, acknowledging that a great deal of the history of the universe is back and mostly intact.

    Speaking of those couplings... why could Rucka not have done something like that? Why could he not simply BUILD on what was already there? GA and BC retain the stuff they have been going through these last years, the great Lemire run and the horrid Nocenti. Superman simply merged his old and new selves sacrificing nothing. And yet Rucka for all his talent decided the best thing he could do was wipe the past out and say it never existed... why the hell did he think this was a good solution?!
    Why didn't Azzarello?

    DC wanted a return to the original Diana, not the sword wielding Xena-clone from an island of barbaric man-haters. That's what Rucka is writing. You may not like it, and again, I can respect that opinion, but it is no different than what Azzarello did with the exception that this is what DC wanted for the DCU - a return to the glory days. It may not be your cup of tea, but to counter - why should Rucka build on a background that through out 70 years of history and which DC didn't want anymore?

    Have you now? Where would this be then? 2 issues of Scott's drawings where nothing happened or were revealed beyond what you needed to know to get Steve back off the island?
    We know that the Amazons are reincarnations of women who had been struck down by men, that Diana and Hippolyta had a loving relationship, and that she's with Phillipus. We know the Amazons have great respect for others and for their traditions and are technologically advanced enough to rebuild an aircraft and make it invisible. Diana had girlfriends, Io is around, and the Amazons are actively searching for Diana. Castalia, Hippolyta, Phillipus and Io all have personalities and are working together to discover Diana's fate.

    And don't write off the first few issues of 'Truth' because you didn't like it. In it, we are reintroduced to the Amazons and their culture and to dismiss it out of hand because it furthers Diana's story, imo, does them an injustice.

    Again, Azzarello's sales were sliding just as every writers' has on the book. His run ended at 35K, a mild uptick from his penultimate issue which did 34K. They didn't level out at a high rate, and had gone from 36K, to 35K, to 34K, showing a steady decline until that little bump on his final issue. Again, this isn't a slam on Azzarello - his run wasn't selling. She ended at #75 on the top 100, the previous run ended at a ranking of #60, and Rucka is currently at #26.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    He didn't change it; he left it entirely intact, as a myth.

    He didn't reboot anything. She still comes from That Blamed Island, which used to be so special, when writers used it more sparingly.
    With all due respect? No.

    A myth is a story that's created without any basis in fact, usually to explain away natural occurrences or to illustrate a point or moral.

    Hippolyta lied to Diana to cover up her indiscretion and save her, the Amazons and Diana from Hera's wrath. She concocted the whole clay origin as a cover story, outright lying to Diana about her parentage not to create a legend but to hide from Hera.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Why? Because DC wanted to. For starters, sales (thank you sales thread):

    Pre-Azzarello:

    WW #609 31,421
    WW #608 32,540
    WW #607 33,053
    WW #606 33,601
    WW #605 35,495
    WW #604 37,405
    WW #603 38,852
    WW #602 38,012
    WW #601 39,672

    Azzarello:





    Rucka:

    WW #8: 66,405
    WW #9: 64,555
    WW #10: 60,815
    WW #11: 58,692
    WW #12: 55,693
    WW #13: 54,589
    WW #14: 52,784
    WW #15: 50,987
    WW #16: 49,921
    WW #17: 48,662
    WW #18: 47,484
    WW #19: 46,745

    Again, Azzarello's sales were consistently very good. But, not so great that, apparently, DC decided they didn't warrant keeping it all going forward. And, Rucka and co have, somewhat, justified that belief in nearly every issue outselling its Azzarello-counterpart.

    But, this isn't really about sales. Nor is it about your imagined rules for events (that DC doesn't share). It's just you complaining, because you liked Azzarello's run better, right? As an opinion, that's fine. We like what we like. But, it doesn't make for a strong argument to discard Rebirth just for spite.



    All of Azzarello's run sold for the same price. There are lots of other variables, the rise of digital sales, the huge marketing push for New 52, the growing number of Marvel monthly titles on the shelves, etc. It's never a perfect comparison. But, looking at the numbers straight up, Azzarello's run was not some unquestionable gold standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Tho' I respect it, that's just your opinion. To me, it's the number of issues, to you it's the time. To each his/her own.



    1. DC didn't fire Azzarello - he left. He had one story he wanted to tell. He told it. He moved on. The Finches continued in the world he set and the numbers continued to slide.

    2. This isn't a 'mini-reboot', it's 25 issues returning the character to her original roots as requested by DC and as has been happening across the Rebirth line.

    3. All issue 1s are a 'one off sales bump'. The decline in sales is consistent with just about every WW writer ever. I'm not saying Rucka is awesome, I'm saying Azzarello wasn't the phenomenal sales boost he's sometimes made out to be. His run followed the sales of just about every WW run, and the nu52 Diana ended up exactly where the pre-52 run left off sales wise.



    Azzarello reintroduced the Amazons as murderous man-haters, something they had never been before. Many fans who enjoyed Azzarello's run weren't crazy about this aspect, either, and this change alone drove away a number of fans.

    As to Paradise, I'll define it this way - somewhere Diana wanted to stay because she was loved. Azzarello made a point of writing completely the opposite - a Diana who was bullied, who was different, who didn't fit in and who was looking for her 'ticket' off the island. It's a huge difference in the character - one who leaves behind all that they know and love to go help others versus one who flees a home where they don't belong in search of adventure.



    The point is that tragic losses of family and home are a staple in the background of many heroes.

    And you don't think Hal Jordan's father has anything to do with him becoming a Green Lantern? To quote his wiki biography, " As a young child, he idolized his father, a test pilot who worked for Ferris Aircraft. At a very young age, he had to face his greatest fears when his father died in a plane crash right before his eyes." His father is the key to him overcoming his fears as well as his choice of his career as a 'fearless test pilot.'

    But again, my point is that the loss of home, family, friends, etc. is a key element in the history and origin of a number of heroes. Diana always stood out as being from a loving home who gave up peace and tranquility to go fight for what was right.



    Here you and I will have to agree to disagree. She could have lived an immortal life of happiness and love, but instead gave up her immortality and her home to go out and live in the world to help mankind.



    And that's a big difference for some of us.

    You really think Batman's motivations for justice wouldn't change if his parents were criminals? You don't think it would ring a little hollow for him to be setting things to right because of his parents' death if his parents were part of the problem and not innocent victims who represented the 'good' of Gotham?

    I would disagree.



    The New Gods were gone before nu52, and I would hardly consider the Phantom Stranger and Spectre as top tier heroes. Earth 2 had been eliminated and then re-done before nu52, so that leaves us Superman and Flash.

    Superman was still Kal El, still rocketed from Krypton, still raised in Smallville with Lana as his first girlfriend, still raised by the Kents, and still moved to Metropolis and worked at the Daily Planet with Perry, Lois and Jimmy.

    Flash was still Barry Allen, a police scientist who was struck by chemicals bathed in lightning to become the fastest man alive. He still lived in Central City, he still worked for the CCPD, Captain Frye was still around and Iris West is still a local reporter. Yes, he's dating someone new.

    Batman and Green Lantern? Untouched. Aquaman? Other than him and Mera not being married, he's still Arthur Curry, son of a lighthouse keeper and an Atlantean, still King of Atlantis.

    Diana's mother changed in looks and in history - an adulteress as opposed to a sculptor. In the entire run only two or three other Amazons even get names, and they're all new. Amazons are murdering the fathers of their children (who didn't exist before nu52) and Diana's powers no longer come from the gifts of the gods but from being the daughter of Zeus. She no longer was the champion of her people who won the right to leave, but had to flee her home to protect Steve Trevor. Other than the All New Hippolyta and the All New gods, every supporting cast member from the book was gone, from named Amazons to Steve and Etta, etc.

    I'm sorry if I'm not making it clear, but there was a huge difference between the way Diana was handled by Azzarello and the way every other premiere hero at DC (people with their own solo books) was managed, and this was all because it was what Azzarello chose to write.

    As Awonder said - there isn't a difference between the situations, there just seems to be a difference in which version you prefer. I can absolutely respect your preference, but in the case of the nu52, this was the Diana and her story that Azzarello pitched. In the case of Rebirth, this is the Diana that DC wanted back and that Rucka wanted to write.



    Sorry, I'm not following you here. We saw all 5 years of the Nu52 - that's how long those titles lasted. Across the entire DC universe, all of the titles are filling in the 10 years, acknowledging that a great deal of the history of the universe is back and mostly intact.



    Why didn't Azzarello?

    DC wanted a return to the original Diana, not the sword wielding Xena-clone from an island of barbaric man-haters. That's what Rucka is writing. You may not like it, and again, I can respect that opinion, but it is no different than what Azzarello did with the exception that this is what DC wanted for the DCU - a return to the glory days. It may not be your cup of tea, but to counter - why should Rucka build on a background that through out 70 years of history and which DC didn't want anymore?



    We know that the Amazons are reincarnations of women who had been struck down by men, that Diana and Hippolyta had a loving relationship, and that she's with Phillipus. We know the Amazons have great respect for others and for their traditions and are technologically advanced enough to rebuild an aircraft and make it invisible. Diana had girlfriends, Io is around, and the Amazons are actively searching for Diana. Castalia, Hippolyta, Phillipus and Io all have personalities and are working together to discover Diana's fate.

    And don't write off the first few issues of 'Truth' because you didn't like it. In it, we are reintroduced to the Amazons and their culture and to dismiss it out of hand because it furthers Diana's story, imo, does them an injustice.

    Again, Azzarello's sales were sliding just as every writers' has on the book. His run ended at 35K, a mild uptick from his penultimate issue which did 34K. They didn't level out at a high rate, and had gone from 36K, to 35K, to 34K, showing a steady decline until that little bump on his final issue. Again, this isn't a slam on Azzarello - his run wasn't selling. She ended at #75 on the top 100, the previous run ended at a ranking of #60, and Rucka is currently at #26.
    Sorry, but I had worked out a very long reply to all of this and unfortunately hit the wrong button as I was about to post it.

    But to sum it all up:

    I really do not believe Rucka needed to wipe out everything from the past 5 years, when he could just as easily have meshed the old with the new in a gradual fashion if needed.
    Like say having Philipus showing up as Dessa's second in command. Finding Io working in her forge with the Purple Healing Ray standing in the corner. Show us that the Gods change shape as they see fit... like seeing Arez(zerello) morph into his Perez amor or something else. And if you have to get rid of the baby raiding, simply reveal it to be a lie fabricated by Hephaestus to stop Diana from digging any further and finding out the truth. It is not impossible for a writer to pull this off, the nuclear option should have been a last resort... like it was before Flashpoint.

  12. #192
    Astonishing Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Sorry, but I had worked out a very long reply to all of this and unfortunately hit the wrong button as I was about to post it.

    But to sum it all up:

    I really do not believe Rucka needed to wipe out everything from the past 5 years, when he could just as easily have meshed the old with the new in a gradual fashion if needed.
    Like say having Philipus showing up as Dessa's second in command. Finding Io working in her forge with the Purple Healing Ray standing in the corner. Show us that the Gods change shape as they see fit... like seeing Arez(zerello) morph into his Perez amor or something else. And if you have to get rid of the baby raiding, simply reveal it to be a lie fabricated by Hephaestus to stop Diana from digging any further and finding out the truth. It is not impossible for a writer to pull this off, the nuclear option should have been a last resort... like it was before Flashpoint.


    The problem with that is that the Amazons would still have been murderous, baby-trading, sex pirates, Hippolyta would still be party to an adulterous affair, and Diana would still be a bi-polar sex offender. That would not sit well with many of us.
    Currently Reading: Aquaman, Batgirl & The Birds of Prey, Green Arrow. Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps, Justice League of America, The Terrifics, Titans, Wonder Woman, & Wonder Woman '77.

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    The way I see it, Rucka only got rid of the New 52 Amazons but left everything else that happened in the New 52 intact, which I would be OK with. I know it doesn't make sense and he did it in the most convoluted way possible, but I have a hard time seeing that DC editorial will just let him wipe away 5 years of back story in one issue. There was literally only a one page spread that just said she has never been back to the island, that's it. No follow-up explanation or anything, and unfortunately it doesn't look like Rucka will be explaining much of anything before he leaves.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Sorry, but I had worked out a very long reply to all of this and unfortunately hit the wrong button as I was about to post it.

    But to sum it all up:

    I really do not believe Rucka needed to wipe out everything from the past 5 years, when he could just as easily have meshed the old with the new in a gradual fashion if needed.
    Like say having Philipus showing up as Dessa's second in command. Finding Io working in her forge with the Purple Healing Ray standing in the corner. Show us that the Gods change shape as they see fit... like seeing Arez(zerello) morph into his Perez amor or something else. And if you have to get rid of the baby raiding, simply reveal it to be a lie fabricated by Hephaestus to stop Diana from digging any further and finding out the truth. It is not impossible for a writer to pull this off, the nuclear option should have been a last resort... like it was before Flashpoint.
    And again, just like Azzarello, that's not the story he wanted to write but, more to the point, that's not the character DC wanted him to write.

    Rebirth is a return to the pre-52, with nu52 being five 'fake' years. She remembers it, and it 'happened', but it's not 'real.'

    Just as Azzarello got to choose the 'new' cast and origin that he wanted, Rebirth permits Rucka to do the same. Again, other than a vastly different looking Hippolyta (stockier, blonde hair, different features), Azzarello did not use a single other Amazon from any point in the history of the book. Why did he choose to throw out everything that came before?

    Many fans missed the original Amazons, both in name and in temperament. They missed the 70 years of history that Azzarello nullified by changing the gods, changing the origin and changing the Amazons.

    To me, it comes down to this. 70 years of history versus a 5 year re-write by one writer - which should take preference with Rebirth? Clearly the Azzarello version was not a huge sales boon - again, it wasn't bad, but it trended just like every other writer/artist team has. Clearly the universe he created wasn't a key selling point because sales tumbled when the Finches came on board.

    So there's no financial motivation to maintain the universe that Azzarello built, and DC clearly wanted a to take the character back to her roots or they wouldn't have hired Rucka to write the story he did. They tried Azzarello's version, they got a lot of blow back from fans, and the sales of the book didn't justify the radical changes Azzarello made.

    Just as the Finches were given Azzarello's universe to build on, DC hired Rucka to world build the 'Rebirth' universe. From this point forward, Rucka's sandbox is what they want writers to play in, just as during the nu52 era, Azzarello's was the take they were supposed to use.

    I disagree that this is a 'nuclear option,' and personally I and a section of the fanbase viewed Azzarello as going nuclear on the character, completely re-writing the character in ways no other writer had done.

    For the record, by the way, I enjoyed the story Azzarello told but didn't like the changes he made to do it. I thought the changes he made were unnecessary and disrespectful to the history of Diana and the Amazons. I'm happy with the changes Rucka made.

    But mainly, I just don't see the difference between what the two writers have done - each of them were hired by DC based on the stories they wanted to write. Both of them were blank slate universes to play with (nu 52 universe versus the Rebirth universe), but Rucka was brought on with the caveat that he was to return the 'original' Wonder Woman, whereas Azzarello was solely responsible for the elements he changed when he pitched his story to Didio.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Sorry, but I had worked out a very long reply to all of this and unfortunately hit the wrong button as I was about to post it.
    Oh, how I fuel the Red Lanterns when that happens. Sympathies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    But to sum it all up:

    I really do not believe Rucka needed to wipe out everything from the past 5 years, when he could just as easily have meshed the old with the new in a gradual fashion if needed.
    Like say having Philipus showing up as Dessa's second in command. Finding Io working in her forge with the Purple Healing Ray standing in the corner. Show us that the Gods change shape as they see fit... like seeing Arez(zerello) morph into his Perez amor or something else. And if you have to get rid of the baby raiding, simply reveal it to be a lie fabricated by Hephaestus to stop Diana from digging any further and finding out the truth. It is not impossible for a writer to pull this off, the nuclear option should have been a last resort... like it was before Flashpoint.
    I understand and sympathize with the frustration of seeing favorite story elements discarded. And, the frustrating part about Azzarello's run is that there is a lot of good in there, like Hera and Strife, as you mentioned earlier. But, imo, there's some serious bad that isn't easily erased, made somewhat worse by the Finch run. Just as you feel Rucka didn't need to go "nuclear," I feel Azzarello didn't need to so thoroughly poison the wells and the fields.

    You're right that Rucka could have easily added more familiar Amazons like Philipus and Io. But, they would be showing up under the cloud of the sex pirate baby killers. You suggest having it be a lie by Heph, and maybe that could work, though I'm having trouble picturing it. And, anything that brings back brunette Hippolyta is good in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    ... Just as Azzarello got to choose the 'new' cast and origin that he wanted, Rebirth permits Rucka to do the same. Again, other than a vastly different looking Hippolyta (stockier, blonde hair, different features), Azzarello did not use a single other Amazon from any point in the history of the book. Why did he choose to throw out everything that came before?

    Many fans missed the original Amazons, both in name and in temperament. They missed the 70 years of history that Azzarello nullified by changing the gods, changing the origin and changing the Amazons...


    For the record, by the way, I enjoyed the story Azzarello told but didn't like the changes he made to do it. I thought the changes he made were unnecessary and disrespectful to the history of Diana and the Amazons. I'm happy with the changes Rucka made...
    For me, the biggest frustration with the Azzarello run is that, with a stronger WW editor asking for a few changes on the divisive elements (mainly the Amazons), I feel like it could have been the stellar, defining foundation from which to build. But, because of the sex pirate baby trading - an idea that even Azzarello did not handle very well - he twisted, distorted, and poisoned WW's world too much to keep. If he'd only gone with less of a "bold, new changes" for the sake of change to "fix," and more of a "greatest hits" feel, it could have been so much better.

    But, whether or not they should have erased the new 52 version, I don't think they should discard the Rebirth version. Rebirth has been a bit too slow, but I don't think there's anything here too problematic for future writers to work with. This Poison is underwhelming, for instance, but that can be developed. As long as the core of WW is a solid and secure foundation, the rest is open to new adventures.
    Last edited by Awonder; 04-21-2017 at 09:40 AM.

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