Oh god Marvel

[Tiamatty]

So if people don't want their favorite characters to get sidelined by "legacy" characters, they should buy diverse books simply because they're diverse even if said books and characters don't interest them at all? I don't agree.

Not at all. People should buy books that interest them. But I do think that, if someone talks a lot about how diversity "should" be done, they should probably talk up the books they feel are doing it well. If someone says they support diversity, then constantly bashes diverse titles while only buying titles created by and starring straight white dudes . . . at that point, you kinda gotta question their sincerity, you know? I make an effort to talk up diverse titles I enjoy, because I think that's worth doing. I pretty much never see that from the "do it right" crowd. All the "I support diversity but" people get pretty damn silent when asked which diverse titles they buy.

[NexusTenebrare]

The one who dated Lois throughout the late 80s and early 90s and married her in '96. Superman Reborn basically made all of that canon again. So, that Superman. Its honestly probably one of the more natural and obvious developments that the writers should have thought up years ago. And what's more is that, thankfully, it is a reversal of the removal of Clark from his roots that we saw during the New 52. It reinstated a lot of his relationships and development, most importantly the fact that Lois and Clark moved past the whole "love triangle" dynamic, where Lois was in love with Superman but not Clark and never knew they were one and the same, a looooooooooong time ago. Reverting back to that dynamic during the New 52 was textbook regression.

Clearly you never actually read Superman during the New52, because there was no love triangle in the New52. No regression. Neither Superman nor Clark Kent were in any way romantically involved with Lois Lane. She was still a supporting character in the book, but that's it.
The New52 actually moved away from Superman/Lois Lane entirely.

[Moon Ronin]

Not at all. People should buy books that interest them. But I do think that, if someone talks a lot about how diversity "should" be done, they should probably talk up the books they feel are doing it well. If someone says they support diversity, then constantly bashes diverse titles while only buying titles created by and starring straight white dudes . . . at that point, you kinda gotta question their sincerity, you know? I make an effort to talk up diverse titles I enjoy, because I think that's worth doing. I pretty much never see that from the "do it right" crowd. All the "I support diversity but" people get pretty damn silent when asked which diverse titles they buy.

The only issue I have is that the diversity seems to be targeting a younger demographic, almost all of the new "diverse" heroes are in their teens. I know that its great to widen the reader base and appeal to the next gen of readers but (to me anyway) they went off balance with their current base.

[Zeeguy91]

Clearly you never actually read Superman during the New52, because there was no love triangle in the New52. No regression. Neither Superman nor Clark Kent were in any way romantically involved with Lois Lane. She was still a supporting character in the book, but that's it.
The New52 actually moved away from Superman/Lois Lane entirely.

Actually, unfortunately for myself, I did read New 52 Superman. The reversion I was referring to was back to the dynamic in which Lois and Clark were not married and she had no idea that he was Superman. That is textbook reversion when we actually look at the fact that she not only knew he was Superman, but also was married to him, for 20 years. That's erasing all of the development that took them from that dynamic they had in the 70s to the relationship they shared throughout much of the 90s and 2000s. That's not an opinion. That's a fact.

And, yeah, the fact that Lois was removed as a romantic interest from his life? Yeah, that's actually part of what made Nuperman NOT feel like the real Superman.

And what's more is that 95% of the New 52 Superman material was just badly written garbage. Lobdell's run was trash, Morrison's run was overrated crap that hardly made sense, and literally nothing else even stood out among the Superman material that was published during the New 52. The only times that New 52 Superman wasn't a chore to read was when either Pak or Johns was writing him, but even then in the case of the former, he was drawn into lame crossover after lame crossover to the point where it turned what could have been a good run into something that was barely of note.

So...still think I haven't read it?

[legion_quest]

The only issue I have is that the diversity seems to be targeting a younger demographic, almost all of the new "diverse" heroes are in their teens. I know that its great to widen the reader base and appeal to the next gen of readers but (to me anyway) they went off balance with their current base.

Yeah, this was my general issue with it as well.

Marvel went too hard in the direction of change - what that change was or to doesnt really matter - what matters is they went in hard on changing many of their key heroes (or the odd fringe hero that has a loud but small base) and isolated many fans who didnt wan't to read about the new character, not because of any prejudices, but because they simply weren't the characters they wanted to read.

Sometimes change is good, sometimes change is bad - but what matters is that when you bring in the change, you do all you can to keep everyone happy. Not just chuck stuff at a wall, see what sticks, and tell anyone criticising that they are the ones with the problem.

[FlashingSabre]

So as someone who does buy diverse books, like Blue Beetle and New X-Men, and also hates the idiotic SJW pandering Marvel is currently obsessed with, am i allowed to complain?

[kilderkin]

Current DC is solid, with Priest's Deathstroke being leagues above anything Marvel is publishing ATM. To say that DC overall sucks, is an ignorant thing to say. We're talking about the company that gave us Morrison's Animal Man & Doom Patrol, Sandman, Lucifer, Hellblazer and Transmetropolitan, Kirby's New Gods and a whole slew of comics that changed the medium and told non-superhero stories.

DC has produced amazing runs and books. To call them all awful, is like I said, rather short-minded. Opinions aside, certain achievements should be recognized, despite personal bias. At least IMO.

I could not agree more

Like any publisher they have their hits and misses but some of their story's and characters define this hobby

[Tiamatty]

The only issue I have is that the diversity seems to be targeting a younger demographic, almost all of the new "diverse" heroes are in their teens. I know that its great to widen the reader base and appeal to the next gen of readers but (to me anyway) they went off balance with their current base.

Younger readers are probably more likely to be interested in diverse books than older ones. More important, attracting younger readers is integral to Marvel's long-term survival.

[Colossus1980]

The only issue I have is that the diversity seems to be targeting a younger demographic, almost all of the new "diverse" heroes are in their teens. I know that its great to widen the reader base and appeal to the next gen of readers but (to me anyway) they went off balance with their current base.

My biggest issue is that the majority of the younger demographic cannot afford $4 an issue to read something that takes 10 minutes.

Yes, the comic companies need a younger audience to sustain readership. But they should make it more affordable. High school students have more important things to spend money on than a comic book.

Again I know there`s a cheaper way by subscribing to Marvel Unlimited and maybe they are doing that. But for the average teen whom Marvel is targeting $4 is a lot of money for floppies.

[Assam]

For my money, all the new diverse characters were the best thing that has ever happened to Marvel.

Not BECAUSE they're diverse, though that's good too, but because they're great characters.

I've been a DC loyalist for decades, and part of the reason I never really cared about the MCU, was because the characters did nothing for me. But all of the new characters? No, they're not ALL great, but I prefer the vast majority of them to their classic counterparts.

Hell, this is the first time in my life I'm actually reading some Marvel books AS they come out. It's still only 3 because on the whole, I still prefer DC by a mile, but I'm absolutely loving Ms. Marvel, Champions, and ESPECIALLY Unbeatable Squirrel Girl.

Obviously I have a different perspective than most of you, but for my money, these new characters are the ones that I care about and am invested in.

[stain]

My biggest issue is that the majority of the younger demographic cannot afford $4 an issue to read something that takes 10 minutes.

Yes, the comic companies need a younger audience to sustain readership. But they should make it more affordable. High school students have more important things to spend money on than a comic book.

Again I know there`s a cheaper way by subscribing to Marvel Unlimited and maybe they are doing that. But for the average teen whom Marvel is targeting $4 is a lot of money for floppies.

It's kind of a catch 22. In addition to all the other injustices fans want to solve, you can't pay writers/artists/creatives more yet keep prices static.

I mentioned this in another thread .... for me, Marvel Unlimited is perfect. I dropped out of Marvel at the start of Secret Wars for a variety of reasons, I've been a collector since '79. I got MU and haven't bought 1 new Marvel comic (LCS or digital). I still have a pull list with DC, and in my opinion DC is just simply better right now. I have yet to read any post-Secret War Marvel comics that hold my interest, but I am enjoying reading obscure Marvel titles at MU (60s-90s).

[rui no onna]

It's kind of a catch 22. In addition to all the other injustices fans want to solve, you can't pay writers/artists/creatives more yet keep prices static.

I mentioned this in another thread .... for me, Marvel Unlimited is perfect. I dropped out of Marvel at the start of Secret Wars for a variety of reasons, I've been a collector since '79. I got MU and haven't bought 1 new Marvel comic (LCS or digital). I still have a pull list with DC, and in my opinion DC is just simply better right now. I have yet to read any post-Secret War Marvel comics that hold my interest, but I am enjoying reading obscure Marvel titles at MU (60s-90s).

This pretty much. Either circulation per title needs to go up or prices do. So far, it's mostly the prices that have been going up.

Average sales of DCU comics as of February 2017 is 40,430 with median sales at 37,504 per this article's number crunching. Add in Young Animal, Vertigo and licensed properties, those numbers are gonna go down significantly. I doubt Marvel did much better (if it's even better at all). Given DC had less comics than Marvel while their total estimated unit sales for comics are close, I'm guessing Marvel's average per comic sale is even lower.

Netflix and Amazon can afford to produce their own shows which cost a whole lot more than a comic because of volume. Netflix is nearing 100 million subscribers while Amazon has, last I saw, 50-60 million Prime subscribers. I don't expect to see anywhere near those numbers for comics but to me, it seems unfathomable that they couldn't even reach at least 500K subscribers world wide.

[Tiamatty]

My biggest issue is that the majority of the younger demographic cannot afford $4 an issue to read something that takes 10 minutes.

Yes, the comic companies need a younger audience to sustain readership. But they should make it more affordable. High school students have more important things to spend money on than a comic book.

Again I know there`s a cheaper way by subscribing to Marvel Unlimited and maybe they are doing that. But for the average teen whom Marvel is targeting $4 is a lot of money for floppies.

Yeah, that's a very definite problem. That's probably the biggest obstacle Marvel faces in attracting new readers.

[stain]

This pretty much. Either circulation per title needs to go up or prices do. So far, it's mostly the prices that have been going up.

Average sales of DCU comics as of February 2017 is 40,430 with median sales at 37,504 per this article's number crunching. Add in Young Animal, Vertigo and licensed properties, those numbers are gonna go down significantly. I doubt Marvel did much better (if it's even better at all). Given DC had less comics than Marvel while their total estimated unit sales for comics are close, I'm guessing Marvel's average per comic sale is even lower.

Netflix and Amazon can afford to produce their own shows which cost a whole lot more than a comic because of volume. Netflix is nearing 100 million subscribers while Amazon has, last I saw, 50-60 million Prime subscribers. I don't expect to see anywhere near those numbers for comics but to me, it seems unfathomable that they couldn't even reach at least 500K subscribers world wide.

The distant future will be about subscription services like MU, I wouldn't have said that 5 years ago. Print won't go away but it will become specialty with a higher price tag. Either way, you can't pay the talent more if the prices don't go up or if you don't add subscribers/dedicated buyers.

I know this board has a wide variety of fans, spanning old collectors to new fans of the last couple of years ... LCS don't have the traffic they once had in my opinion. I have my pull list at Meltdown, they are doing fine because they are world famous shop, but my last 3 LCS shops here in LA are gone. I would hate to see the end of LCS, I worked at 2 while in high school and college, and I feel the fans will miss having those places around. For all the great indie comics and publishing houses, LCS are dominated by DC and Marvel. If those 2 giants are not doing well then the entire industry suffers.

I hate mention another website here but bleeding cool does publish comic shop owner articles about the business and they are interesting reads.

[RLAAMJR.]

Maybe Marvel should give us 30 pages comics. 22 pages is just too short. Even independent comics up to nearly 40 pages at the same price