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  1. #151
    Fantastic Member uebersoldat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dum Dum Dugan View Post
    They made Iceman gay two years ago and they're just now giving him a series. If they did it to make money they could have done a lot more to milk it then, not to mention it happened during the time that Marvel was doing their best to minimize the X-Men's role in the Marvel Universe.

    And Lefou was gay in Beauty and the Beast because the director was gay and wanted there to be more representation. The movie was already going to be a massive success no matter what, it didn't need any help in that area.
    This is what I'm talking about, you can spin any side you want but it looks good and will bank with the progressives and to at least some extent, that's part of the hand they are playing.

  2. #152
    X Gon' Give It to Ya Dum Dum Dugan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uebersoldat View Post
    This is what I'm talking about, you can spin any side you want but it looks good and will bank with the progressives and to at least some extent, that's part of the hand they are playing.
    How is this what you're talking about? Is that why they waited two years after making Iceman gay to give him a series, instead of striking while the iron was still hot? And even now, is Marvel going out of their way to promote his series the way they've done with their other properties?

  3. #153
    Incredible Member Diammandis's Avatar
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    Are ya'll still arguing how these coming outs ruined said characters? It really shouldn't matter anymore, yes the way we found out was weird but nevertheless, we still get a gay character to represent us...

    anyways that's my onion I wont say anymore

  4. #154
    Northern Lights Beaubier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggs View Post
    Nope just saying the difference from RL and comics.
    Comics are somewhat beholden to real life though. It's not like they're set in some fantastic world populated by alien creatures that absolutely does not resemble real life at all.

    This "so what if it happens in real life, this is comics!" Makes absolutely no sense.

  5. #155
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaubier View Post
    Comics are somewhat beholden to real life though. It's not like they're set in some fantastic world populated by alien creatures that absolutely does not resemble real life at all.

    This "so what if it happens in real life, this is comics!" Makes absolutely no sense.
    I wonder if 80's folks similarly complained about God Loves, Man Kills being too "RL in my comics".

  6. #156
    Christopher! Fokken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I wonder if 80's folks similarly complained about God Loves, Man Kills being too "RL in my comics".
    Oh for SURE. Everyone was pissed on the regular for any and all developments back in the day.
    Rogue joining the X-Men? Storm cutting her hair? Kitty using slurs? Scott quitting? Scott doing much of anything?
    EVERYTHING spurs "RAAAAARRR" from the fandom at any given interval. Just a matter of whether they find a loud enough platform to be heard.
    "Um, blah, blah, blah. And, Girl Power. Feminism, d'you know what I mean?"

  7. #157
    Scarlet and Proud! Star_Jammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fokken View Post
    Oh for SURE. Everyone was pissed on the regular for any and all developments back in the day.
    Rogue joining the X-Men? Storm cutting her hair? Kitty using slurs? Scott quitting? Scott doing much of anything?
    EVERYTHING spurs "RAAAAARRR" from the fandom at any given interval. Just a matter of whether they find a loud enough platform to be heard.
    2D3744C5-873F-4FB7-8E9F-9D377DE1ED96.jpg

    Don't like the direction of the books? Quit or become a writer of them!
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  8. #158
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    I wonder if Marvel will finally make Bobby relevant to comics. He's always been such an underdeveloped X-Man(mind you there are several), a bumbling loser, a big joke. There were times they tried to make him a bad-ass in terms of his power but then he'd slip back into his wimpy role. Will this be his long-term breakout role?

    IMO Colossus and Iceman were X-Men characters who never got any respect considering their longevity.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricochet Rita View Post
    Regarding Iceman, I don't know why him. Fact is, it goes back a long way. He was the one, among The (male) New Defenders, who fell in love with Cloud...in 1984!



    He didn't know then that he/she was, um, intersexual or whatever. Anyway, it was a curious (and very interesting, IMO) story.
    If one actually read the issues, it had to do with Cloud's origin as a sentient nebula. Iceman was attracted to the "Carol form" of Cloud and thought that this was Cloud's true form like the other Defenders did. His actions after the "Danny form" and Moondragon reflects that and it's in text ("Should I kiss you or shake your hand?"). He was not attracted to "Danny" at all and why some ignore this giant boldfaced fact in the book is beyond me. But it's actually in text and depicted with art. You see them talk it out. You see him state that he couldn't fall hard for Cloud because somewhere inside of Cloud "is a guy" (stated). And you see Cloud's reason for being in "Carol" form ("But I want us to be real close friends, Bobby. That's why I stay in female form when you're around. Because I know you're uncomfortable the other way around.") and offering to stay as "Carol" when he wanted Cloud to know the truth (that the nebula is Cloud's real form and took the form of a human couple). It is a good story, but someone saying that this story (as well as other stories) is about Iceman's supposed "sexuality" shows that they didn't read said story at all and making up a story instead of what's printed.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 04-21-2017 at 12:31 PM.

  10. #160
    Amazing Member zinderel's Avatar
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    This whole 'making people gay ruins comics' argument is an amazing thing, because it reveals both the ignorance and privilege of the people saying it to the reality of the LGBT experience, and it reveals the very real, very messed up assumption that 'straight' is the default setting and anything deviating from that default is 'deviant'.

    Oh, they don't outright CALL gay people deviant, of course, because they aren't bigoted!!! Some of their best friends are gay! And these are fictional constructs, written by unfeeling robots who never reflect the human experience through the milieu of 4 color heroics, so we can't apply the logic that real people often live long lives acting/believing they're straight.

    Yeah, no. Assuming that someone is straight, even after they tell you otherwise, whether real life or fiction, is bigotry, and is in some ways, MORE damaging than if you just said "Man, I hate gay people, they're so gross and I wish I didn't have to know they exist!"

    Subtle, under-the-radar bigotry (or, to use the current buzzword, 'microaggressions') is absolutely harmful to us all, and this thread and the people denying Bobby and Julio's reality in favor of their own precious, fragile little prejudices need to wake up to the harm they do their fellow human beings.

    All that said, if we want to complain about HOW characters came out, or how they were written coming out? I'm there for that conversation, because Bendis is a hack...but trying to argue that reality isn't reality because the author was terrible? That's masking much deeper issues. Badly.
    Last edited by zinderel; 04-21-2017 at 12:55 PM.
    "God once spoke through burning bushes. Now, He seems to prefer speaking through flaming a**holes." - Uncredited Internet Genius

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    That's only because what you read as hints and subtext down through the years that he was in the closet were interpreted as something else by others. We all bring our own experiences, biases, and worldviews to what we read and, as such, will interpret less-than-explicit story elements differently.

    In my case, I always read such supposed hints and subtext as merely displays of Iceman's immaturity and juvenile personality. And, to me, immaturity and being a slacker man-child aren't indicators of being a closeted gay man or of being sexually repressed in general.
    Bingo.

    And some people read a comic without playing "what they really mean is..." and go by what's actually depicted?

    That's how I know that Iceman was a total cheapskate when he dated Zelda but she liked her "penny pinching Romeo" anyway, that Iceman was better off without Judy (and some follow-up with Iceman confronting her should have definitely happened), that Opal couldn't handle X-Men life and she's a big reason for the relationship falling apart (and the baby shenanigans afterwards), that everything Iceman said about Mystique was right on the money when he confronted her about her crazy and feelings, that Annie and Iceman shouldn't have hooked up when both couldn't get over their respective feelings for Havok and Polaris, that what happened with Marge (who he really liked to the point of him imagining marrying her....bit thirsty he was) and Oblivion was really hard but some good did happen in the end, that Emma Frost and Iceman had an attraction for each other that was left unresolved, that his repression was about his power repression (and everything Emma said back in UXM 331...."Stop analyzing everything to death! There are some things in life you can do by just doing! Ask yourself Drake -- what if you don't try? Will you be able to live with yourself if you don't do it on your own?"), that Kitty was so dead wrong for the way she acted towards Firestar because Angelica liked Iceman (and Iceman's the immature one?), that Warbird was shameless in her pursuit of Iceman, and so on and so forth.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 04-21-2017 at 01:55 PM.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy View Post
    Obviously that's not true or honest. The OP included Rictor because they did not think it was done right.

    There is absolutely no right way to come out. As a gay man that is highly offensive. We all have our different coming out stories and trust me. Many are not believable but they're true.

    The issue isn't that Marvel did anything wrong.
    You misinterpreted what I wrote, projected your own grievances onto it, and are making insinuations about me that you have no business making. That REALLY ticks me off. You're offended? Fine. So am I, so now we're even.

    One more time, for the cheap seats: Iceman being gay is not the problem. Iceman coming out is not the problem. How Bendis wrote the story is the problem. As I said before, the way Bendis constructed the story promotes a set of offensive, false, and corrosive stereotypes: 1) that failure in hetero relationships is proof of homosexuality, 2) that being single past a certain age is proof of homosexuality, 3) that your sexual orientation is whatever your friends tell you it is, and 4) that immature behavior and a juvenile personality--as Iceman has historically had--are signs of repressed homosexuality.

    All of these are, of course, b.s. Being gay doesn't mean being immature. Nor does being immature mean being gay. Failure in relationships doesn't, in and of itself, indicate sexual orientation one way or the other. Neither does being single past a given age. Lastly, no, your sexual orientation is not whatever your friends tell you it is.

    So, by saying otherwise, yes, IMO, Bendis and Marvel did something wrong.

    It's you speaking on things you can't possibly understand.
    How do you know? You don't know me.

    Also, Icemans sexuality has been questioned for decades. This was not an out of the blue left field type of situation.
    Bull.

    Iceman was created as a hetero character and written as one at least as late as the Mike Carey run. See: the portrayal of his relationships and attempted relationships with Lorna Dane, Opal Tanaka, and Mystique. Iceman being a severely repressed, self-hating gay man was a retcon by Bendis.

    The notion of Iceman being gay started as a running joke in Marvel editorial in the early 1980s because he was always written as a serial monogamist and an immature man-child. (Again, this was based on common, but false and offensive stereotypes and assumptions about LGBT behavior.) The only real questioning of Iceman's sexuality was among elements of the fan community starting in the late 1990s. I know because I was there when it started on Usenet. From there, it evolved into a common trope in X-Men slashfic. Sometime in the last few years, Bendis and/or Marvel editorial picked up on this and decided to make it canon.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar Spun Sorceress View Post
    So Bobby dreaming of a place without prejudice is proof he's gay? As if LGBT are the only victims of prejudice? As if they're the only ones who dream of freedom from it?

    It's a metaphor. A metaphor for the desire of all victims of prejudice--sexual, racial, ethnic, religious, whatever--to live free of that prejudice.

  14. #164
    X Gon' Give It to Ya Dum Dum Dugan's Avatar
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    Mike Carey actually said he thought of Iceman as bi, but okay.

  15. #165
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    The Spider-Man & His Amazing Friends cartoon would have been a whole lot different. LOL!

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