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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    But it's a false nostalgia for a time that never really existed. Popular heroes have always had multiple titles. There have always been legacy heroes dating back to the 1940s when Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr were around. Even Fantastic Four #1 back in 1961 had the second Human Torch. You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.
    Ok, for the last time. Batman Superman etc. have always had multiple titles. Marvel did NOT have multiple titles for single characters for the first decade of my collecting comics. Guest appearances were controlled by Stan Lee, so that if someone showed up in another title, it was always referenced in the character's own book. This is not false nostalgia, and these are not my version of facts, they are just facts, but by this point your snotty responses are just pissing me off. Believe what you want, I don't care.

  2. #47
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    Well, to be fair, the only thing that the Ultimate universe really had going for it was shock value, so might as well maximize it. And it fits because Ultimate Magneto really was Mutant Hitler, right down to being so obsessed with Eugenics that his children were allowed --- even encouraged --- to become incestuous, that old-fashioned royal inbreeding seen in all ancient cultures.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Copy and paste from another thread like this.

    The way TPTB at Marvel treat the Maximoff twins is rough. They are eXcluded from all recent Avengers shows (Assemble, Earth's Mightiest Heroes), they're not in any of the games (Disney Infinity, Marvel vs Capcom Infinite), they miss nearly all the recent big events (IvX, CW II only appearing in a tie-in for SW, Secret Wars, Time Runs Out, each of the 3 Avengers titles under Hickman, Original Sin, Fear Itself); although they did make it into AXIS and AvX, and finally their parental status keeps being changed. Altered during AXIS (November 2014), altered again for Uncanny Avengers vol 2 (June 2015), altered a 3rd time during Wanda's ANAD different title (2016). Pietro and Wanda have had 3 different moms in 2 almost 3 years now. Hahaha. I wager anything they'll get a new mom sometime this year as well.


    And all for what? The twins weren't big draws before the retcons or before their debut in the MCU. What was the point of all this?

    It be different if Brevoort or whoever wanted this to happen was actually building a story on this, but that's not happening. We're literally going in circles and downright neglecting the Maximoffs from the wider MU. Wanda shakes out a little better than Pietro, because the power creep and fill in the blank nature of Wanda's powers have taken in the last 2 decades or so. Whatever the plot demands, Wanda somehow can change it to the heroes benefit. There have been multiple Flashes at DC and they all have great runs under various writers, but Pietro... He's like a companion piece to Wanda nowadays.
    Last edited by Doctor Know; 04-19-2017 at 02:19 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Copy and paste from another thread like this.

    The way TPTB at Marvel treat the Maximoff twins is rough. They are eXcluded from all recent Avengers shows (Assemble, Earth's Mightiest Heroes), they're not in any of the games (Disney Infinity, Marvel vs Capcom Infinite), they miss nearly all the recent big events (IvX, CW II only appearing in a tie-in for SW, Secret Wars, Time Runs Out, each of the 3 Avengers titles under Hickman, Original Sin, Fear Itself); although they did make it into AXIS and AvX, and finally their parental status keeps being changed. Altered during AXIS (November 2014), altered again for Uncanny Avengers vol 2 (June 2015), altered a 3rd time during Wanda's ANAD different title (2016). Pietro and Wanda have had 3 different moms in 2 almost 3 years now. Hahaha. I wager anything they'll get a new mom sometime this year as well.


    And all for what? The twins weren't big draws before the retcons or before their debut in the MCU. What was the point of all this?

    It be different if Brevoort or whoever wanted this to happen was actually building a story on this, but that's not happening. We're literally going in circles and downright neglecting the Maximoffs from the wider MU. Wanda shakes out a little better than Pietro, because the power creep and fill in the blank nature of Wanda's powers have taken in the last 2 decades or so. Whatever the plot demands, Wanda somehow can change it to the heroes benefit. There have been multiple Flashes at DC and they all have great runs under various writers, but Pietro... He's like a companion piece to Wanda nowadays.
    And to think that he once had his own solo series in 1997 with Tom Peyer... it seems like nobody at Marvel knows what to do with him when he's not angsting over being the son of Magneto. That's why I prefer Fox Quicksilver, who's not an angry emo.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stingray View Post
    Ok, for the last time. Batman Superman etc. have always had multiple titles. Marvel did NOT have multiple titles for single characters for the first decade of my collecting comics. Guest appearances were controlled by Stan Lee, so that if someone showed up in another title, it was always referenced in the character's own book. This is not false nostalgia, and these are not my version of facts, they are just facts, but by this point your snotty responses are just pissing me off. Believe what you want, I don't care.
    You are talking past each other arguing about different things. But I am particularly interested in the irrelevance of nostalgia to modern comics. Its a trap. Regardless of whether you brand nostalgia in a positive or negative light your comments are clearly nostalgic. You may prefer the past, but I can assure you, not enough modern readers do. This is why some of us see it as false and negative, because it says nothing about today. Your memories of sixties and seventies comics can be true and incisive but they won't help anyone sell comics today.

    Unless Marvel and DC can catch the attention of the modern reader they are destined to repeat the problems they had in the nineties by selling only to the people they already sell to and driving the market into a smaller and smaller niche. Only this time, other sectors will happily move in and take their market share. The biggest growing sector in comic readership is females between 17 and 33. They are not nostalgic for a day when most female characters were expressing themselves in thought bubbles about how the lead male is ignoring their purely visual charms. If your local comic shop isn't seeing this demographic in their store they are leaving money on the table because those people are buying somewhere else instead.

    If we had Stan style character crossovers today nobody would be applauding. In the light of modern comics they are almost all awful. Characterisation was inconsistent, the meetings were often contrived and the overall effect is just clunky. I am working my way through early X-Men comics and appearances (slowly) and my heart sinks whenever I have the choice of following a crossover because unless it is the same writer it will be pointless at best. By the time we get past about 1978 the pointers and cross-referencing gets very inconsistent. It was a lot easier when they only had a few titles. No matter how well-read and appreciated the back catalogue is, these comics are not up to modern standards, we have moved on, we can't go back. We will only ever be able to appreciate them as historic works.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-19-2017 at 05:02 AM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Whizzer and Madeline Frank are awful characters. I'm glad that they aren't the parents of Wanda and Pietro. I've also grown to enjoy Magneto no longer being beholden to them. the twins were incredibly whiny about being trained to survive/fight.
    And, you know, forced to become terrorists and being abused. And there was that time when Magneto mind controlled Wanda into doing a sexy dance for the entire Brotherhood. I think that could cause some hurt feelings. Just saying.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by stingray View Post
    Ok, for the last time. Batman Superman etc. have always had multiple titles. Marvel did NOT have multiple titles for single characters for the first decade of my collecting comics. Guest appearances were controlled by Stan Lee, so that if someone showed up in another title, it was always referenced in the character's own book. This is not false nostalgia, and these are not my version of facts, they are just facts, but by this point your snotty responses are just pissing me off. Believe what you want, I don't care.
    Nick Fury had multiple titles in the 60s. And Human Torch had a solo run in Strange Tales while appearing in FF.

    It's true that Stan controlled the titles because he was scripting and coplotting the majority of them. But that was only because the titles were capped due to a onerous distribution deal. The moment Stan had a better deal, he expanded the titles and brought in other writers.

    The large selection of titles means that Marvel can offer up a greater variety to a larger audience. Whether it's a gritty crime comic with the Punisher, a coming of age story of Ms. Marvel, a family drama like The Vision, or a comedy like Squirrel Girl.

    Even in the 60s, there were inconsistencies and errors. Captain America's revival in Avengers #4 ignored his series from the 1950s. The Johnny Storm Human Torch was a new character that took an old character's name and powers and never mentioned what happened to the original for years. Sub-Mariner took a hero from the 1940s and made him into an antagonist that fought other heroes. Bruce Banner became Robert Bruce Banner because Stan wrote the wrong name in one comic.
    Last edited by Rincewind; 04-19-2017 at 09:35 AM.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And, you know, forced to become terrorists and being abused. And there was that time when Magneto mind controlled Wanda into doing a sexy dance for the entire Brotherhood. I think that could cause some hurt feelings. Just saying.
    Outside of their early Brotherhood days, Wanda and Pietro really have nothing to blame Magneto for, but they sure try to blame/fault him for everything that went wrong in their lives. The twins left Magneto and made it on to the Avengers. They became members of Earth's Mightiest Heroes; Quicksilver became and X-Man (on X-Factor). The twins made it!


    Magneto can't be blamed for for the twins multiple turns to evil after they became heroes.

    Pietro in the 80s against the FF, WCA, Avengers and Inhumans. Later retconned to be under the influence of Maximus.

    Wanda's mental breakdown and turn to evil in the 80s against the Avengers. Later revealed to be Immortus' doing.

    Wanda's mental breakdown and turn to evil during Disassembled/New Avengers. Retconing the above story and Wanda never really dealing with losing her figment children. This whole thing being retconned during Children's Crusade to be the work of Dr. Doom.

    Wanda's turn to evil during AXIS, when she struck down her "family".


    The personal relationships of the twins.
    Quicksilver not being liked by his fellow Avengers. I remember Jan and Jennifer saying they thought he was creepy . As well as, QS having no real guy friends on the team. Pietro being an absent father and a failed husband. Also, being persona non grata with the Inhumans after what he did during Son of M.

    The sour grapes and bruised feelings Wanda has created among the Avengers with her past attacks. Her love life being rocky with both Vision and Wonder Man. The confusing nature of her relationship with her sons.


    Now, I know the twins are fictional characters, but just listing and typing this all out, you really get sense that TPTB/TPTW really set out to make the Maximoffs lives miserable. And that misery needs and in-universe antagonist. Someone to blame for their troubles. And that someone has been Magneto for decades.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Outside of their early Brotherhood days, Wanda and Pietro really have nothing to blame Magneto for, but they sure try to blame/fault him for everything that went wrong in their lives. The twins left Magneto and made it on to the Avengers. They became members of Earth's Mightiest Heroes; Quicksilver became and X-Man (on X-Factor). The twins made it!


    Magneto can't be blamed for for the twins multiple turns to evil after they became heroes.

    Pietro in the 80s against the FF, WCA, Avengers and Inhumans. Later retconned to be under the influence of Maximus.

    Wanda's mental breakdown and turn to evil in the 80s against the Avengers. Later revealed to be Immortus' doing.

    Wanda's mental breakdown and turn to evil during Disassembled/New Avengers. Retconing the above story and Wanda never really dealing with losing her figment children. This whole thing being retconned during Children's Crusade to be the work of Dr. Doom.

    Wanda's turn to evil during AXIS, when she struck down her "family".


    The personal relationships of the twins.
    Quicksilver not being liked by his fellow Avengers. I remember Jan and Jennifer saying they thought he was creepy . As well as, QS having no real guy friends on the team. Pietro being an absent father and a failed husband. Also, being persona non grata with the Inhumans after what he did during Son of M.

    The sour grapes and bruised feelings Wanda has created among the Avengers with her past attacks. Her love life being rocky with both Vision and Wonder Man. The confusing nature of her relationship with her sons.


    Now, I know the twins are fictional characters, but just listing and typing this all out, you really get sense that TPTB/TPTW really set out to make the Maximoffs lives miserable. And that misery needs and in-universe antagonist. Someone to blame for their troubles. And that someone has been Magneto for decades.
    Magneto can't be blamed for the twins problem, unless you are apparently a writer who believes that my dad's evil therefore I can become evil
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  10. #55
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    Yeah that was the ultimate universe version of their characters not the main 616 version and in my honest opinion one of the worst things to come out of the ultimate marvel line of comics.
    Ah yes...

    That odd feeling you get when it turns out that Mark Millar was the epitome of subtlety and nuance compared to the guys that followed him...
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Outside of their early Brotherhood days, Wanda and Pietro really have nothing to blame Magneto for, but they sure try to blame/fault him for everything that went wrong in their lives. The twins left Magneto and made it on to the Avengers. They became members of Earth's Mightiest Heroes; Quicksilver became and X-Man (on X-Factor). The twins made it!


    Magneto can't be blamed for for the twins multiple turns to evil after they became heroes.

    Pietro in the 80s against the FF, WCA, Avengers and Inhumans. Later retconned to be under the influence of Maximus.

    Wanda's mental breakdown and turn to evil in the 80s against the Avengers. Later revealed to be Immortus' doing.

    Wanda's mental breakdown and turn to evil during Disassembled/New Avengers. Retconing the above story and Wanda never really dealing with losing her figment children. This whole thing being retconned during Children's Crusade to be the work of Dr. Doom.

    Wanda's turn to evil during AXIS, when she struck down her "family".


    The personal relationships of the twins.
    Quicksilver not being liked by his fellow Avengers. I remember Jan and Jennifer saying they thought he was creepy . As well as, QS having no real guy friends on the team. Pietro being an absent father and a failed husband. Also, being persona non grata with the Inhumans after what he did during Son of M.

    The sour grapes and bruised feelings Wanda has created among the Avengers with her past attacks. Her love life being rocky with both Vision and Wonder Man. The confusing nature of her relationship with her sons.


    Now, I know the twins are fictional characters, but just listing and typing this all out, you really get sense that TPTB/TPTW really set out to make the Maximoffs lives miserable. And that misery needs and in-universe antagonist. Someone to blame for their troubles. And that someone has been Magneto for decades.
    Yes, Magneto should be blamed for their problems. The twins received these negative character developments after they were retconned into being Magneto's children. Now that they are no longer his children, I think they will receive more positive character developments.

  12. #57
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think the only good writers Wanda and Pietro had was Stan. I did like James Robinson's Scarlet Witch series too.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Ah yes...

    That odd feeling you get when it turns out that Mark Millar was the epitome of subtlety and nuance compared to the guys that followed him...
    It's all relative.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    Yes, Magneto should be blamed for their problems. The twins received these negative character developments after they were retconned into being Magneto's children. Now that they are no longer his children, I think they will receive more positive character developments.
    so what of their good traits? does Magneto get credit for those positive character developments?
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  15. #60

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    P.S. the father is Mordred the Mystic
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

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