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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    5. Luna, Billy, Tommy: Who? They might as well have been erased from the timeline with the retcon and Lorna is not far from them in terms of damage.
    I'm not sure how it affected Luna. They've had essentially no interaction in their entire history.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I'm not sure how it affected Luna. They've had essentially no interaction in their entire history.
    Who had had no interaction with Luna?

    Magneto?



    They have had a fair bit over the years starting with her very birth.

    Lorna?

    No, not really either.



    Last edited by jmc247; 04-20-2017 at 05:59 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Thing is, there is no correllation to causation. Magneto isn't responsible for Wanda's mental instability and her lashing out at her friends and family. Magneto tried to help her both times (Disassembled/House of M and Children's Crusade). Pietro's turn to evil happened when Magneto had renounced his evil ways and joined the X-Men at taught at Xavier's school. As for Pietro's personal sturggles with Crystal, Luna and the Inhuman Royals, all that is squarely on Pietro's choices. Like gurkle said when referencing Remender's Uncanny Avengers post-AXIS, Wanda and Pietro have been scapegoating Magneto for everything that went wrong in their lives. When in truth, they are screwed up because they're screw ups. Or rather because TPTB/writers want them to be screw ups and failures; as a way to create drama. .

    You're talking as if Pietro and Wanda were real people. They're not. They're fictional characters written by writers, and if the writer literally writes the reason Wanda and Pietro became evil because they inherited the evil from Magneto, then that is the reason they became evil ( even if in the real world, children of criminals don't inherit "evil" from their parents).

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    That's to be expected though. Wanda has always resided most with the Avengers crowd, while Pietro has pulled shifts with the Avengers, X-Men, Inhumans and as an ambassador for Genosha when it still existed. Without the mutant community to interact with, Pietro really has nothing to do but be Wanda's less amazing sibling. Like I said before, Pietro has no Avenger friends, women think he's creepy and his family ties non-Wanda (Crystal, Luna, Lorna and Magneto) are all estranged.
    Pietro has Avenger friends: Captain America for one, if you read Captain America comics from the 90s. He's also friends with Hawkeye, Hercules, Hank Pym, Deadpool, Tygra, Warbird/Mrs.Marvel/Captain Marvel etc... Asfor women finding him creepy, you're referencing a comic from the 80s in which Jan and Jennifer were rating the hotness of male Avengers to "viewers", so I'm sorry if I don't take their opinion as definitive proof of Pietro's creepyness. Conversely, I could show you instances of women coming on to Pietro, so apparently he's perfectly serviceable. The problemwith Pietro is not that he's awful, it's that writers aren't interested in him. Why? Because the majority of writers have no clue how to write around his powers. His super speed should theoretically make him unbeatable and able to resolve all fights by himself. So what ends up happening is that he's the first one knocked out in fights so the writer can drag out the conflict and have their favorite character in the spotlight. Obviously, a character who gets knocked out in the beginning of a fight in a superhero comic (a genre that basically revolves around fights) isn't going to get a whole lot of development. So this is the main problem with Quicksilver: even though there's apparently a whole bunch of writers at DC who can write super speed, over at Marvel, all speedsters essentialy get shafted by writers.

  4. #79
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    You're talking as if Pietro and Wanda were real people. They're not. They're fictional characters written by writers, and if the writer literally writes the reason Wanda and Pietro became evil because they inherited the evil from Magneto, then that is the reason they became evil ( even if in the real world, children of criminals don't inherit "evil" from their parents).
    True, but take Avengers 503 for instance Bendis gave the script to Loeb and said he loved it, but he wondered where Magneto was which Bendis said he hadn't thought about Magneto up to that point but the conversation gave him the idea to bring him Magneto the story and likely the whole blaming her upringing and 'bad genes' so Avengers 503 was not originally planned with Magneto in mind.
    Last edited by jmc247; 04-20-2017 at 06:44 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    True, but take Avengers 503 for instance Bendis gave the script to Loeb and said he loved it, but he wondered where Magneto was which Bendis said he hadn't thought about Magneto up to that point but the conversation gave him the idea to bring him Magneto the story and likely the whole blaming her upringing and 'bad genes' so Avengers 503 was not originally planned with Magneto in mind.
    A lot of Pietro's and Wanda's problems with sanity started in the 80s though, which was after the Magneto reveal. And like I said before, it's mentioned within the stories that the fact their father is Magneto is what gives the twins the propensity to lose their minds and become evil. Prior to the reveal, the twins never had bouts of insanity. It was only after that they became metally unbalanced, just like their dad.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksilverfan View Post
    You're talking as if Pietro and Wanda were real people. They're not. They're fictional characters written by writers, and if the writer literally writes the reason Wanda and Pietro became evil because they inherited the evil from Magneto, then that is the reason they became evil ( even if in the real world, children of criminals don't inherit "evil" from their parents).
    I know they're fictional. I said as much in a previous post. However, we cannot ignore the "man behind the curtain", the powers that be, the writers who have consistently spin yarn from Pietro and Wanda having mental and emotional turmoil in order to craft dramatic stories. TPTB have repated this process across various media with the twins. Multiple titles and events in the 616, in the Ultimate Universe, all 3 animated X-Men shows, the XCU movies etc. The identity crisis of the twins has been the primary story Marvel has chosen to utilize for them. And as the writers can make whatever plot points up, the writers have consistenly attributed Wanda and Pietro's troubles to be Magneto's fault. A curse of blood, so to speak.

    Not a very good curse, since it doesn't affect Lorna at all. Pietro served as an ambassador for Genosha under Magneto before it was destroyed by super sentinels. When Wanda was kicked out of the Avengers after Children's Crusade but before AvX started, she went to Utopia to live in Magneto's castle. Not to mention all the off and on times Magneto and the Maximoffs interact on civil and familar terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksilverfan View Post
    Pietro has Avenger friends: Captain America for one, if you read Captain America comics from the 90s. He's also friends with Hawkeye, Hercules, Hank Pym, Deadpool, Tygra, Warbird/Mrs.Marvel/Captain Marvel etc... A sfor women finding him creepy, you're referencing a comic from the 80s in which Jan and Jennifer were rating the hotness of male Avengers to "viewers", so I'm sorry if I don't take their opinion as definitive proof of Pietro's creepyness. Conversely, I could show you instances of women coming on to Pietro, so apparently he's perfectly serviceable. The problem with Pietro is not that he's awful, it's that writers aren't interested in him. Why? Because the majority of writers have no clue how to write around his powers. His super speed should theoretically make him unbeatable and able to resolve all fights by himself. So what ends up happening is that he's the first one knocked out in fights so the writer can drag out the conflict and have their favorite character in the spotlight. Obviously, a character who gets knocked out in the beginning of a fight in a superhero comic (a genre that basically revolves around fights) isn't going to get a whole lot of development. So this is the main problem with Quicksilver: even though there's apparently a whole bunch of writers at DC who can write super speed, over at Marvel, all speedsters essentialy get shafted by writers.
    You're right writers mistreating Pietro. Dude has been given a glass jaw by the writers. My comments about Pietro's seemingly lack of friends only extends to his Avengers teammates. I know regualr women and Crystal find him attractive. I just can't recall Pietro having any buddies or close guy and girl friends on the team. I think of this panel from Buisek's Avengers, and how Pietro does seem to alienate himself and keep others at a distance.




    Pietro's closest relationships and friends were with Wanda (of course), Lorna (on X-Factor) and Magneto. He's just got Wanda now, but the underutilized nature till perseists at Marvel.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I'm not sure how it affected Luna. They've had essentially no interaction in their entire history.
    Luna is a character I imagine TPTB at Marvel forget exists constantly. She has sporadic appearances, but has 3 groups of people she has histories with that all used to be prevalent. The Inhumans (her mother is a Royal), Mutants (on her Father's side and extended family, although he is no longer a mutant) and the Fantastic Four/Future Foundation (Franklin, Valeria and the other kids are in the same age group as she is). Now, you would think with Marvel's shortlived Age of Inhumans (2013-2017), Luna would've made more appearances but she didn't. Her father has been a main stay Avenger since the 60s, but he himself doesn't play a big role in most Avengers comics and events.

    Which is a shame. Given the nature of her origins (half-Inhuman and half-mutant) and which Inhumans and mutants she's related to, Luna could be a really interesting character given expanded development.

    As for interactions, jmc247 posted some of Luna with Lorna as an adolescent and Magneto when she was born. There are some others though but you have to know where to look.

    Avengers vol 3 #1

    Pietro, Luna, Wanda and Crystal out to dinner.




    Son of M

    Magneto is furious to learn Pietro exposed Luna to Terrigen Mists. Something even Magneto knows can be fatal to the persons exposed.




    Also, there's this promo image Jae Lee did of Magneto and baby Luna awhile back. Recall the scandal that Magneto, a man who made it his life's crusade to subjugate homo sapians; learns that his first grandchild is a regular human. But Magneto had gone soft by then (even Dr Doom commented on back on Byrne's FF), by giving up his ambitions. However, Magneto didn't care what Luna was. She was fine the way she was.

    https://68.media.tumblr.com/81205357...pq4io3_500.jpg
    Last edited by Doctor Know; 04-21-2017 at 10:36 AM.

  7. #82
    Fantastic Member Elegant Dreamer's Avatar
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    Scarlet Witch's and Quicksilver's history was confusing for me, and just when I thought I got it, they want to change it.

    I am still confused about Quicksilver getting his powers back with Terrigen stuff, and even re-powering de-powered mutants when recently that stuff is now deadly to mutants. Did Maximus messed with the Terrigen stuff and I missed it? I probably did.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Not a very good curse, since it doesn't affect Lorna at all.
    Lorna is also mentally unstable. I haven't read much of her history prior to the 90s (she became evil when she was possessed by Malice in the 80s I think), but definitely, after the destruction of Genosha she was a bit...crazy. Incidentally, that's also when she learned she was Magneto's daughter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    You're right writers mistreating Pietro. Dude has been given a glass jaw by the writers. My comments about Pietro's seemingly lack of friends only extends to his Avengers teammates. I know regualr women and Crystal find him attractive. I just can't recall Pietro having any buddies or close guy and girl friends on the team. I think of this panel from Buisek's Avengers, and how Pietro does seem to alienate himself and keep others at a distance.
    Quicksilver was basically a background character in Busiek's run, that's why it looked like he had no friends... I'm not saying Pietro is gregarious or that he's the type of character who would say "Hey! What's up dude! Want to grab a beer at the bar?". But in comics from the 60s/70s/ and 90s, where writers remember Quicksilver is on the team, he's offered personal support to the characters I listed before (Captain America, Hercules, Finesse etc...). Also, some of his friendships are a bit "confrontational", like with Hawkeye or Johnny Storm. They get on each other's nerves, but at the end of the day, they'll help each other out.





    Pietro's closest relationships and friends were with Wanda (of course), Lorna (on X-Factor) and Magneto. He's just got Wanda now, but the underutilized nature till perseists at Marvel.




    Luna is a character I imagine TPTB at Marvel forget exists constantly. She has sporadic appearances, but has 3 groups of people she has histories with that all used to be prevalent. The Inhumans (her mother is a Royal), Mutants (on her Father's side and extended family, although he is no longer a mutant) and the Fantastic Four/Future Foundation (Franklin, Valeria and the other kids are in the same age group as she is). Now, you would think with Marvel's shortlived Age of Inhumans (2013-2017), Luna would've made more appearances but she didn't. Her father has been a main stay Avenger since the 60s, but he himself doesn't play a big role in most Avengers comics and events.

    Which is a shame. Given the nature of her origins (half-Inhuman and half-mutant) and which Inhumans and mutants she's related to, Luna could be a really interesting character given expanded development.

    As for interactions, jmc247 posted some of Luna with Lorna as an adolescent and Magneto when she was born. There are some others though but you have to know where to look.

    Avengers vol 3 #1

    Pietro, Luna, Wanda and Crystal out to dinner.




    Son of M

    Magneto is furious to learn Pietro exposed Luna to Terrigen Mists. Something even Magneto knows can be fatal to the persons exposed.




    Also, there's this promo image Jae Lee did of Magneto and baby Luna awhile back. Recall the scandal that Magneto, a man who made it his life's crusade to subjugate homo sapians; learns that his first grandchild is a regular human. But Magneto had gone soft by then (even Dr Doom commented on back on Byrne's FF), by giving up his ambitions. However, Magneto didn't care what Luna was. She was fine the way she was.

    https://68.media.tumblr.com/81205357...pq4io3_500.jpg[/QUOTE]

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksilverfan View Post
    Lorna is also mentally unstable. I haven't read much of her history prior to the 90s (she became evil when she was possessed by Malice in the 80s I think), but definitely, after the destruction of Genosha she was a bit...crazy. Incidentally, that's also when she learned she was Magneto's daughter.
    60s Lorna is well an interesting case study, it's just one that one has to read to understand same for 60s Magneto.



    As for 90s Lorna I don't think you remember, but Lorna's stability was an ongoing issue then.

    ''Twas even a running joke by your namesake.



    And, enough to get fans in the 90s to often argue the character is either totally bland or just emotionally disturbed. You can just about copy and paste the same arguments about her for and against from 1993 to what was being said about her in 2003.

    Was her previous connection to Magneto to blame? A little bit. 90s writers very clearly drew inspiration in crafting Pietro and Lorna's relationship on a brother and sister relationship. Why? He was the son of Magneto and she was the daughter until they retconned it and then had no parents so in the absence of having parents they slowly went back to the original story which is how things might end up if Marvel can't fill in Wanda and Lorna's backstory with something fans like in the next decade.
    Last edited by jmc247; 04-22-2017 at 02:52 AM.

  10. #85
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    Yes, crazy is in the blood in the eyes of some writers, but its also an excuse to tell the story they already wanted.



    Bendis.... I don't think so.



    The real question Quicksilverfan is if retconning their parentage will fix the problem?

    If Lorna is any indication the answer is no. They had her insane or borderline insane a number of times in the 90s between retcons.
    Last edited by jmc247; 04-22-2017 at 03:07 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    The real question Quicksilverfan is if retconning their parentage will fix the problem?
    If Lorna is any indication the answer is no. They had her insane or borderline insane a number of times in the 90s between retcons.
    Concerning Pietro, I'm more worried that, since he literally has no connection to anyone anymore (I think he made up with Wanda, but clearly Marvel intends to keep the twins separated), he will simply get stuck in limbo. Wanda has Marvel movies which forces writers to make her relevant in some way. Pietro has the Fox movies, but Marvel is not interested in capitalizing on those movies.
    Lorna, last I heard, is already stuck in limbo... When you consider that the Axis parentage retcon was billed as "we just want to tell a great story" and yet Uncanny avengers v.2 was crap AND Pietro's story hasn't gone anywhere, it becomes clear it as all just a lie.I did not read the Scarlet Witch solo, so I don't know if she fared any better.
    But to answer your question: no it probably won't fix the problem. I think Wanda and Pietro will always be mentally unstable. Case in point: Pietro got mind-jacked by the red Skull a couple of months ago. If they're not insane because of Magneto, some writer will cook up another excuse for them.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksilverfan View Post
    Lorna is also mentally unstable. I haven't read much of her history prior to the 90s (she became evil when she was possessed by Malice in the 80s I think), but definitely, after the destruction of Genosha she was a bit...crazy. Incidentally, that's also when she learned she was Magneto's daughter.

    Quicksilver was basically a background character in Busiek's run, that's why it looked like he had no friends... I'm not saying Pietro is gregarious or that he's the type of character who would say "Hey! What's up dude! Want to grab a beer at the bar?". But in comics from the 60s/70s/ and 90s, where writers remember Quicksilver is on the team, he's offered personal support to the characters I listed before (Captain America, Hercules, Finesse etc...). Also, some of his friendships are a bit "confrontational", like with Hawkeye or Johnny Storm. They get on each other's nerves, but at the end of the day, they'll help each other out.
    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    60s Lorna is well an interesting case study, it's just one that one has to read to understand same for 60s Magneto.



    As for 90s Lorna I don't think you remember, but Lorna's stability was an ongoing issue then.

    ''Twas even a running joke by your namesake.


    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Yes, crazy is in the blood in the eyes of some writers, but its also an excuse to tell the story they already wanted.



    The real question Quicksilverfan is if retconning their parentage will fix the problem?

    If Lorna is any indication the answer is no. They had her insane or borderline insane a number of times in the 90s between retcons.
    Now those pics are funny. I owe you both an apology. I stand corrected. I don't know whether the writers lack imagination or are bursting with it, with how they depict the children of Magnus as all psychologically disturbed. Now that I think about it, wasn't it said during (I believe the Jim Lee era) that Magneto's magnetic powers fuzzed up his brain chemistry and that's why he acted crazy? Haha, oh man.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksilverfan View Post
    Concerning Pietro, I'm more worried that, since he literally has no connection to anyone anymore (I think he made up with Wanda, but clearly Marvel intends to keep the twins separated), he will simply get stuck in limbo. Wanda has Marvel movies which forces writers to make her relevant in some way. Pietro has the Fox movies, but Marvel is not interested in capitalizing on those movies.
    It's the exact same boat Lorna is in. Both are characters with very limited connections before the retcon and both lost several big ones they didn't have room to lose including each other who were certainly in their top three closest connections.
    Last edited by jmc247; 04-22-2017 at 05:14 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Now those pics are funny. I owe you both an apology. I stand corrected. I don't know whether the writers lack imagination or are bursting with it, with how they depict the children of Magnus as all psychologically disturbed. Now that I think about it, wasn't it said during (I believe the Jim Lee era) that Magneto's magnetic powers fuzzed up his brain chemistry and that's why he acted crazy? Haha, oh man.
    I tend to think of it in terms of power actualized problems rather then the 'corrupted blood thesis'. Wanda's mental instability non-withstanding all the retcons to fix it is a type of power induced schizophrenia. As in her sense of reality itself got warped as her powers went through the roof tossing her into overload. Children's Crusade did her no favors having her ask Doom for the power up though, it made her much more personally responsible for events then Bendis did.

    Magneto and Lorna's power based instability when it gets written by writers who actually give a fig tends to come off the same. They are channeling near limitless power through their nervous system and the human body can only take so much power before it overloads and is damaged.





    After it gets damaged it tends of manifest in screwed up emotions and mania and megalomania as if they just took a lot of say amphetamines and brains seem on fire.

    With Pietro when he is bad he is usually, but not always depicted as a hot tempered, quick to anger character who makes mistakes and doesn't think things though a la HoM #1. PAD of course explained this as a self actualization of his powers that the world moves at one speed and he moves at a very different one.
    Last edited by jmc247; 04-23-2017 at 04:33 AM.

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    Ok so everyone is going off and on abut it ruins their relationship with this person, or this person with that one, but honestly at this point in the Marvel universe these character relations with the other characters, blood will be one of the least deciding factor, and all about their personal experience.
    Magneto: Will most likely help out with stuff since he has turned(ing) over a new leaf, but I can see him not saying no if his former grandchildren ever needed something.
    Quicksilver: Barely had any interaction with Magneto since the Mutant depowering, with really only children crusade and Axis he was willing to work alongside for a mutual goal, he and Polaris would still be friends, and possible teammates if the story ever needed it to be so they trust each other and know that each other have gone through a lot.
    Scarlet Witch: Pretty much same boat as Quicksilver.
    Polaris: She will be a mix between Magneto and QS/SW there for the children and will help out when the time comes, also cause of her I am glad the retcon happened since her relationship with Havok, if it comes back could you picture the Summers family being added to this.
    Luna: Just as for a time she didn't see Quicksilver as her father for his actions, she will see them as her family depending on that and if one is in trouble she will help out since it is the right thing to do.
    Speed: He is the reincarnated soul flung back in time of a demon touched baby whose parents are a witch and an android, what would he consider family even, I can see him and Quicksilver working together because of powers.
    Wiccan: Same boat as Speed but replace Quicksilver with Scarlet Witch, and add a husband who is a mix of 2 alien races who hate each other on one side he is the heir to the empire, on the other holds the blood of their greatest hero, he also had 2 step siblings with the younger being a reincarnated gender flipped version of the older.

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