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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ijacksparrow View Post
    Five years ago I'd completely agree with you. These days Marvel Comics is worse than the worse that the MCU can offer that being Iron Fist, let alone Agents of SHIELD. That just shows how far Marvel Comics has fallen.
    I was referring to the fact that they take place in completely different continuities. Also, you're looking at the wrong books if you enjoy Iron Fist more, even with Marvel's current struggles.

  2. #107
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirayuki View Post
    I was referring to the fact that they take place in completely different continuities. Also, you're looking at the wrong books if you enjoy Iron Fist more, even with Marvel's current struggles.
    Nah. Dan Slott books have been great. Both Amazing Spider-Man and Silver Surfer. Black Widow is great. Vision was great. The rest? I'm reading some of it via Marvel Unlimited, but not good enough to go 'OMG how I will be able to keep up with all this awesome' like it was back in the Age of Heroes stories. That was the last time that all the Marvel Comics books were consistently amazing. Continuity doesn't matter as much to me as it once did. The spirit of Marvel lives in the MCU. I can definitely feel it. Marvel Comics unfortunately hasn't being able to make me happy when it comes to Marvel.

    Last edited by ijacksparrow; 04-18-2017 at 06:03 PM.
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  3. #108
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    Quick question to everybody regarding Secret Empire: Why does anyone think SE won't end with the Kobik retcon being unretconned? To me, that seems the simplest end to the Hydra Cap story. After all, it's a story predicated on the past being changed in a negative fashion. The easiest solution would be to fix that.

    Full disclosure related to the thread: I consider Spencer's Cap to be one of the best runs I've read on the title. I don't always agree with Spencer's politics- I'm far more left than he- but I've never seen him say anything I'd look at a

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirayuki View Post
    Using Agents of SHIELD stuff to discuss comics related things isn't exactly a good argument.
    I love the parallels right now, though. They're talking about how Marvel is doing a Hydra takeover outside comics and Agents of SHIELD's plot fits in perfectly (I have no idea if it's planned or not). The best thing is all the canned rhetoric that Steve Rogers used to separate Hydra is there too. Hydra can't be Nazis. They're older than Nazis. Jemma says "yeah, fuck that, they're Nazis."

    I wouldn't be totally shocked if someone in the comics says something similar.

    BTW, I wanted to give more thoughts about characters and sensitivity with making them Hydra. I'll skip Steve Rogers, since he's basically brainwashed. I don't buy the idea that making a bad guy brainwash a good guy is somehow insensitive to the good guy unless there's something that suggests the good guy would otherwise be sympathetic to or in agreement with the bad guy's ideas. Instead, I'll focus on Magneto.

    First, let's deal with the obvious. We have no idea if Magneto is part of this Secret Empire. I don't think we should assume he is. However, if we assume he is and he is not being brainwashed as well, let's explore that. Would that be insensitive? I think so, yes, but I also think there has to be more nuance to that. Obviously, let's first mention that all the stuff we think of that is problematic is a retcon. I don't think that's enough, though. But I would argue that the goal would just be to have the heroes fight bad guys. The closest precedent for Magneto being on the bad guy side for this is Acts of Vengeance, where Magneto teamed up with the Red Skull. If anything, he was in a more good guy position there and his redemption (tied explicitly to being a Holocaust survivor) was fresher in everyone's minds.
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  5. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I love the parallels right now, though. They're talking about how Marvel is doing a Hydra takeover outside comics and Agents of SHIELD's plot fits in perfectly (I have no idea if it's planned or not). The best thing is all the canned rhetoric that Steve Rogers used to separate Hydra is there too. Hydra can't be Nazis. They're older than Nazis. Jemma says "yeah, fuck that, they're Nazis."

    I wouldn't be totally shocked if someone in the comics says something similar.

    BTW, I wanted to give more thoughts about characters and sensitivity with making them Hydra. I'll skip Steve Rogers, since he's basically brainwashed. I don't buy the idea that making a bad guy brainwash a good guy is somehow insensitive to the good guy unless there's something that suggests the good guy would otherwise be sympathetic to or in agreement with the bad guy's ideas. Instead, I'll focus on Magneto.

    First, let's deal with the obvious. We have no idea if Magneto is part of this Secret Empire. I don't think we should assume he is. However, if we assume he is and he is not being brainwashed as well, let's explore that. Would that be insensitive? I think so, yes, but I also think there has to be more nuance to that. Obviously, let's first mention that all the stuff we think of that is problematic is a retcon. I don't think that's enough, though. But I would argue that the goal would just be to have the heroes fight bad guys. The closest precedent for Magneto being on the bad guy side for this is Acts of Vengeance, where Magneto teamed up with the Red Skull. If anything, he was in a more good guy position there and his redemption (tied explicitly to being a Holocaust survivor) was fresher in everyone's minds.
    it's weird how comic book readers treat Magneto as the ambassador or primary representation of Jewish people. he denounced that aspect of himself a long time ago. to him, the Holocaust is a representation of humanity's potential threat to themselves and (more importantly) mutants; justifying his aggression. Magneto would, reflexively, murder a Nazi. he'd do the same to anyone (mutant or human) he deemed a threat to mutants; even if they were a non combatant. the character is walking PTSD. he doesn't try to reason with people because he's emotionally unable to (detailed quite nicely in a standalone story where he probes a regular joe for signs of bigotry). if he deals with Captain America's secret empire, it will likely be in the same capacity as Namor. the solicits suggest that Atlantis has reached a truce with Captain America's organization. that doesn't mean that they aren't still enemies. Magneto could, speculatively, gain a mutant homeland out of the deal but still be preparing burn Steve's new world order to the ground.
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  6. #111
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    BTW, I wanted to give more thoughts about characters and sensitivity with making them Hydra. I'll skip Steve Rogers, since he's basically brainwashed. I don't buy the idea that making a bad guy brainwash a good guy is somehow insensitive to the good guy unless there's something that suggests the good guy would otherwise be sympathetic to or in agreement with the bad guy's ideas. Instead, I'll focus on Magneto.
    Mike, oh man. Brace yourself for tomorrow.
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  7. #112
    Astonishing Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Why, is tomorrow when issue 9 of Secret Empire comes out?
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  8. #113
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Why, is tomorrow when issue 9 of Secret Empire comes out?
    No, issue #0. But what you are saying there will make no sense after that.
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  9. #114
    Astonishing Member rui no onna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Why, is tomorrow when issue 9 of Secret Empire comes out?
    #0 (of 9)

    I'm still confused if it's 10 issues total or just 9.
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  10. #115
    Astonishing Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ijacksparrow View Post
    No, issue #0. But what you are saying there will make no sense after that.
    Why? We have no idea how the story will end. We're dealing with a reality altering cube girl, so any twist can be explained away if the story calls for it.
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  11. #116
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Why? We have no idea how the story will end. We're dealing with a reality altering cube girl, so any twist can be explained away if the story calls for it.
    I will say no more.
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  12. #117
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    I will say if there's in fact truth to the rumored bombshell in the zero issue which is that the allies used the cosmic cube to win World War II and that hydra and the nazis were always meant to win then that's really going to piss off so many readers.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 04-18-2017 at 07:38 PM.

  13. #118
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    I would say that spoilers from a comic that is not out are a no-no. So beware (and it's worse than that, the implications to Steve and how that will fundamentally hurt the character's core is something that might not be repared ever, cosmic cub or not. It's like one billion times worse than Mephisto killing Spider-Man's marriage of bad and completelly unnecessary and uncalled for. At least OMD was in fact needed to fix the character. Here, it breaks it, and in ways that I'm not sure is possible to be fix it without saying that's Ultimate Cap and not Steve).
    Last edited by ijacksparrow; 04-18-2017 at 07:41 PM.
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  14. #119
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    Regardless if the story is good or bad, if the book does fail commercially, especially with all the money that's being pumped into it , and the media blitz that Marvel is planning, there WILL be changes at Marvel, creatively, editorially, commercially, amount of books published, etc. etc.

  15. #120
    Mighty Member Valamist's Avatar
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    Honestly? Everything I know about Secret Empire (Mostly thanks to the wonderful build up in both Captain America books) leaves me to think this could be a brilliant event, possibly my favorite. I love the idea around it, having one of the greatest heroes in the MU corrupted and turned against everything he has stood for. Its a great epic-level story and I am glad Nick is being given an event to really explore it.

    I really do not get much of the hate the book/story has gotten. Do people really think Nick/Marvel are supporting Nazi values or trying to make Hydra-Cap out to be a good thing? Did they say the same thing with Kieron's Darth Vader series? I get that people will be ticked off, and that's fair enough, but the accusations some people are trying to suggest is mindboggling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jody Garland View Post
    Quick question to everybody regarding Secret Empire: Why does anyone think SE won't end with the Kobik retcon being unretconned? To me, that seems the simplest end to the Hydra Cap story. After all, it's a story predicated on the past being changed in a negative fashion. The easiest solution would be to fix that.

    Full disclosure related to the thread: I consider Spencer's Cap to be one of the best runs I've read on the title. I don't always agree with Spencer's politics- I'm far more left than he- but I've never seen him say anything I'd look at a
    I does surprise me how even veteran comic books fans, when faced with a twist they despise, will think the worst. I mean, when #1 and the whole 'Hail Hydra!' thing kicked off, it was rather outstanding the amount of fans who seemed 100% sure that the change was permanent and would never be resolved etc. Its like half the people complaining never read a comic book arc before..

    Quote Originally Posted by ijacksparrow View Post
    I would say that spoilers from a comic that is not out are a no-no. So beware (and it's worse than that, the implications to Steve and how that will fundamentally hurt the character's core is something that might not be repared ever, cosmic cub or not. It's like one billion times worse than Mephisto killing Spider-Man's marriage of bad and completelly unnecessary and uncalled for. At least OMD was in fact needed to fix the character. Here, it breaks it, and in ways that I'm not sure is possible to be fix it without saying that's Ultimate Cap and not Steve).
    Even if #0 is as shocking as you say (Let me guess, a hint along the lines that Hydra-Cap is more real then normal Steve? Because frankly I have been wondering if something that would happen for a while now...) its still only the prequel issue of a giant event. Countless twists and turns can happen over 9 issues, not counting multiple tie-ins. To say that it will be character braking, unforgivable etc just feels like jumping straight to hyperbole. This is a comic book. Almost anything can happen from now until the event is over.
    Last edited by Valamist; 04-18-2017 at 08:06 PM.
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