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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by ijacksparrow View Post
    I would say that spoilers from a comic that is not out are a no-no. So beware (and it's worse than that, the implications to Steve and how that will fundamentally hurt the character's core is something that might not be repared ever, cosmic cub or not. It's like one billion times worse than Mephisto killing Spider-Man's marriage of bad and completelly unnecessary and uncalled for. At least OMD was in fact needed to fix the character. Here, it breaks it, and in ways that I'm not sure is possible to be fix it without saying that's Ultimate Cap and not Steve).
    There are a lot of easy ways to do that, especially with a cosmic cube walking around. That's assuming the spoiler is what it actually seems to be and not a red herring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Reader View Post
    Regardless if the story is good or bad, if the book does fail commercially, especially with all the money that's being pumped into it , and the media blitz that Marvel is planning, there WILL be changes at Marvel, creatively, editorially, commercially, amount of books published, etc. etc.
    Marvel is already planning changes and they would just write the event off as something that didn't work out while they move on.

  2. #122
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamist View Post
    Even if #0 is as shocking as you say (Let me guess, a hint along the lines that Hydra-Cap is more real then normal Steve? Because frankly I have been wondering if something that would happen for a while now...) its still only the prequel issue of giant event. Countless twists and turns can happen over 9 issues, not counting multiple tie-ins. To say that it will be character braking, unforgivable etc just feels like jumping straight to hyperbole. This is a comic book. Almost anything can happen from now until the event is over.
    It's one thing to rewrite history to make Cap a Nazi. It's awful and it's uncalled for. It's a whole new level of low to make that Nazi/Hydra Cap was the real Cap all along. It's unbelieble disrespectful to the character at its very core. Regardless its twists and turns, regardless how it's undone, unless that Cap isn't even the one from 616 (and that's a concept that only hardcore comic book readers understand) that does maculate the character. It's worse than saying that Peter Parker was the clone all along because regardless how it's undone, the very existance of Captain America ends up maculated. It's disrespectful to the character's history, it's disrespectful with the characters creators, it's disrespectful to fans within and outside comics. It breaks an American symbol completely when he is pretty much needed the most. Which brings to this point: is this worth it? Regardless how well written a book is, is there lines that you shouldn't cross? What is even the purpose of Secret Empire, to break the character beyond repair? Hasn't the allegory gone way too far?
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  3. #123
    Spectacular Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ijacksparrow View Post
    What is even the purpose of Secret Empire, to break the character beyond repair? Hasn't the allegory gone way too far?
    Think of it like this, Captain America and his Secret Empire only exists because the Marvel universe is already broken beyond before. Recent Marvel crossover events have all backfired spectacularly. Civil War II ended with Tony Stark (Marvel's golden boy) effectively dead and Carol Danvers disgraced. Not to mention that whole ethnic cleansing of the X-men at the hands of the Inhumans. Amidst all this a low key story about Captain America as Hydra Agent has been steadily building momentum; that when the rest of the Marvel Universe was out making fools of themselves Steve Rogers, the honourable villain, has gaining support. As such, Hydra's bid for global domination in Secret Empire is perhaps the only logical outcome left for a Marvel Universe that is already rotten to the core.

  4. #124
    Incredible Member Valamist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ijacksparrow View Post
    It's one thing to rewrite history to make Cap a Nazi. It's awful and it's uncalled for. It's a whole new level of low to make that Nazi/Hydra Cap was the real Cap all along. It's unbelieble disrespectful to the character at its very core. Regardless its twists and turns, regardless how it's undone, unless that Cap isn't even the one from 616 (and that's a concept that only hardcore comic book readers understand) that does maculate the character. It's worse than saying that Peter Parker was the clone all along because regardless how it's undone, the very existance of Captain America ends up maculated. It's disrespectful to the character's history, it's disrespectful with the characters creators, it's disrespectful to fans within and outside comics. It breaks an American symbol completely when he is pretty much needed the most. Which brings to this point: is this worth it? Regardless how well written a book is, is there lines that you shouldn't cross? What is even the purpose of Secret Empire, to break the character beyond repair? Hasn't the allegory gone way too far?
    That's the thing though, if you where posting this after #9 then I would say you have a point. Fact is, you are saying all of this before #0 has hit the shelves. In my opinion the twists, turns and overall objective do matter in understating the context.

    Its interesting how you mention it braking a symble that is needed the most. First of all I actually agree, we need heroes like Cap and what they stand for now more then ever. We are living in a world where alt-right and frankly disgusting viewpoints are slipping into mainstream thinking with little challenge and I think that's what Nick has been trying to show in this story. I also honestly think, and you may disagree, that the final point of SE is to actually show just how strong pre-Hydra Steve Rodgers and his symble/views are. That will be the things that defeats HydraCap, and how the meaning of Captain America can truly be a light in the dark. What good are symbols like him if they are not challenged and fought for?

    Is the event worth it? Well again, I do not think anyone can answer that until #9 is over. My philosophy is that in traditional writing, nothing should be off limits. Comics are a little different given their target audience, but even so they are a great medium to explore ideas and stories. When I started reading comics a few years ago it honestly surprised me how little most books really pushed there themes and events.

    I could be wrong about it all, who knows? Well, no one until #9 hits the shelves. This is all just my take on it!
    Last edited by Valamist; 04-18-2017 at 08:36 PM.
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  5. #125
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    I would be surprised if this event doesn't end with reaffirming what Cap stands for and putting everything right in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Think of it like this, Captain America and his Secret Empire only exists because the Marvel universe is already broken beyond before. Recent Marvel crossover events have all backfired spectacularly. Civil War II ended with Tony Stark (Marvel's golden boy) effectively dead and Carol Danvers disgraced. Not to mention that whole ethnic cleansing of the X-men at the hands of the Inhumans. Amidst all this a low key story about Captain America as Hydra Agent has been steadily building momentum; that when the rest of the Marvel Universe was out making fools of themselves Steve Rogers, the honourable villain, has gaining support. As such, Hydra's bid for global domination in Secret Empire is perhaps the only logical outcome left for a Marvel Universe that is already rotten to the core.
    The Oath contained commentary on the state of the Marvel universe and CW2, and it's going to continue with Secret Empire based on the premise.

  6. #126
    Incredible Member Valamist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirayuki View Post
    I would be surprised if this event doesn't end with reaffirming what Cap stands for and putting everything right in some way.
    Yeah, thats basically what I took three paragraphs to try and say too!
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  7. #127
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Think of it like this, Captain America and his Secret Empire only exists because the Marvel universe is already broken beyond before. Recent Marvel crossover events have all backfired spectacularly. Civil War II ended with Tony Stark (Marvel's golden boy) effectively dead and Carol Danvers disgraced. Not to mention that whole ethnic cleansing of the X-men at the hands of the Inhumans. Amidst all this a low key story about Captain America as Hydra Agent has been steadily building momentum; that when the rest of the Marvel Universe was out making fools of themselves Steve Rogers, the honourable villain, has gaining support. As such, Hydra's bid for global domination in Secret Empire is perhaps the only logical outcome left for a Marvel Universe that is already rotten to the core.
    All the things you've mentioned are possible to work it out in comic book fashion. It takes good writers but it happens, eventually. As someone that has Spider-Man as his favorite character in fiction, I've endured two unbelievably stupid retcons with the Clone Saga and OMD. The difference here is that in both stances Marvel had a valid stance, they needed to make Spider-Man single, because the character works better that way. They failed miserably at the execution of both retcons, but the last one at least got rid of the marriage and they never looked back. Dan Slott and the Spider-Braintrust came afterwards and even tho the stories have been amazing, marriage fans complain until this very day about OMD. We are talking here about Captain America. Way more beloved outside comics than he is in comics lately. And Marvel Comics is literally creating controversy and bad press to the brand because... well. Because? Why? Seriously, why? My understanding is that some stories, regardless how well written, sometimes they are literally uncalled for. Like, if someone has a great idea with a Spider-Man saga that he is actually Ben Parker's killer and that Peter somehow breaks the fourth wall and makes us think that he is a hero when in fact Jameson was right all along and it ends with Spider-Man killing every single one of his family and friends. That's retconned because of a cosmic cube, but in fact the cosmic cube retconned the real Peter and the real Peter has always been a serial killer. How is that even a good story worth telling? How can't they see that this damages their own brand?
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  8. #128
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Think of it like this, Captain America and his Secret Empire only exists because the Marvel universe is already broken beyond before. Recent Marvel crossover events have all backfired spectacularly. Civil War II ended with Tony Stark (Marvel's golden boy) effectively dead and Carol Danvers disgraced. Not to mention that whole ethnic cleansing of the X-men at the hands of the Inhumans. Amidst all this a low key story about Captain America as Hydra Agent has been steadily building momentum; that when the rest of the Marvel Universe was out making fools of themselves Steve Rogers, the honourable villain, has gaining support. As such, Hydra's bid for global domination in Secret Empire is perhaps the only logical outcome left for a Marvel Universe that is already rotten to the core.
    Carol Danvers disgraced really? Lol I don't know what you're talking about from her post civil war ii appearances in Steve Rogers, to ultimates 2 to mighty captain marvel even in the oath there's not a indication that she's disgraced and hated by the masses matter of fact she's more admired than disgraced.

    Matter of fact Steve even confirms and acknowledges that the public has accepted and they even admire her despite how morally questionable or wrong her actions and position during civil war ii may have been.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 04-18-2017 at 08:46 PM.

  9. #129
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamist View Post
    I also honestly think, and you may disagree, that the final point of SE is to actually show just how strong pre-Hydra Steve Rodgers and his symble/views are.
    Regardless the twists and turns, my understanding is that after tomorrow, regardless how strong pre-Hydra Steve Rogers heroism is, it'll end up meaningless. Why? There isn't a pre-Hydra Cap.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by ijacksparrow View Post
    All the things you've mentioned are possible to work it out in comic book fashion. It takes good writers but it happens, eventually. As someone that has Spider-Man as his favorite character in fiction, I've endured two unbelievably stupid retcons with the Clone Saga and OMD. The difference here is that in both stances Marvel had a valid stance, they needed to make Spider-Man single, because the character works better that way. They failed miserably at the execution of both retcons, but the last one at least got rid of the marriage and they never looked back. Dan Slott and the Spider-Braintrust came afterwards and even tho the stories have been amazing, marriage fans complain until this very day about OMD. We are talking here about Captain America. Way more beloved outside comics than he is in comics lately. And Marvel Comics is literally creating controversy and bad press to the brand because... well. Because? Why? Seriously, why? My understanding is that some stories, regardless how well written, sometimes they are literally uncalled for. Like, if someone has a great idea with a Spider-Man saga that he is actually Ben Parker's killer and that Peter somehow breaks the fourth wall and makes us think that he is a hero when in fact Jameson was right all along and it ends with Spider-Man killing every single one of his family and friends. That's retconned because of a cosmic cube, but in fact the cosmic cube retconned the real Peter and the real Peter has always been a serial killer. How is that even a good story worth telling? How can't they see that this damages their own brand?
    Quote Originally Posted by ijacksparrow View Post
    Regardless the twists and turns, my understanding is that after tomorrow, regardless how strong pre-Hydra Steve Rogers heroism is, it'll end up meaningless. Why? There isn't a pre-Hydra Cap.
    The problem here is that you're treating the first issue of a 10 part story as the whole story and it's not even your own account of the story. We don't know what's going to happen.

  11. #131
    Incredible Member Valamist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    Carol Danvers disgraced really? Lol I don't know what you're talking about from her post civil war ii appearances in Steve Rogers, to ultimates 2 to mighty captain marvel even in the oath there's not a indication that she's disgraced and hated by the masses matter of fact she's more admired than disgraced.
    To be fair, the public in the MU do seem like... idiots. They celebrate the Hulks death, support the Superhero Registration Act, seem to always have a hate of mutants no matter the situation etc.

    I wonder if Kintor meant more in the readers eye? Because yes, in her books Carol is more popular and well known now then ever but to readers? I feel her popularity has only been damaged thanks to the event of CWII. Do not get me wrong, Carol is still my second favorite comic character and I still love her, but honestly I am not sure why Marvel thought making Carol the 'villain' of the event was a good idea. The thing that has bugged me most is how little they are having Carol react to the events. I mean, she put one of her best friends in a coma, caused another superhero schism and the most actual development we seem to be getting from her is a panel where she holds her hands to her face and a 'Star Wars' like dream about Tony?

    Sorry for the ramble! As I said, i love Carol but I just feel that even if you put aside her position during the event, she was badly treated overall...
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  12. #132
    Incredible Member Valamist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ijacksparrow View Post
    Regardless the twists and turns, my understanding is that after tomorrow, regardless how strong pre-Hydra Steve Rogers heroism is, it'll end up meaningless. Why? There isn't a pre-Hydra Cap.
    According to #0 of a 9 part event. Why, may I ask, are you so certain that this fact will be seen as true forever more and never be revealed to be a deception etc? To me it just seems like a twist that is designed to get people talking about the book and continue reading. Its just like when people where assuming that Cap was not brainwashed or anything after the 'Hail Hydra!' of #1. I am sorry but no matter what #0 throws at me I very much doubt I will end the book and go 'Well crap, I was wrong!' about this.
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  13. #133
    Spectacular Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamist View Post
    I wonder if Kintor meant more in the readers eye? Because yes, in her books Carol is more popular and well known now then ever but to readers? I feel her popularity has only been damaged thanks to the event of CWII. Do not get me wrong, Carol is still my second favorite comic character and I still love her, but honestly I am not sure why Marvel thought making Carol the 'villain' of the event was a good idea. The thing that has bugged me most is how little they are having Carol react to the events. I mean, she put one of her best friends in a coma, caused another superhero schism and the most actual development we seem to be getting from her is a panel where she holds her hands to her face and a 'Star Wars' like dream about Tony?
    A bit of both really. Carol's reputation has really suffered with general readers of Marvel's Universe. Putting Tony Stark in the hospital (so to speak) was never going to be a popular move. Even if Carol was in the right (which is debatable) the only thing that people will remember is that she's the one who stopped Tony Stark from appearing in new comic book issues.

    As for in universe itself, I think that Civil War II: The Oath actually suggests Carol might not as popular as it seems on the surface. Captain America was able to make some quite pointed remarks about Carol in his speech, which got the rest of the audience making sharp glares in Carol's general direction. Plus there's the whole private monologue that Captain America had throughout the rest of that issue, arguing how the act of super heroes fighting on Capitol Hill has made the public despise all super heroes (including Carol) on principle.

  14. #134
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    A bit of both really. Carol's reputation has really suffered with general readers of Marvel's Universe. Putting Tony Stark in the hospital (so to speak) was never going to be a popular move. Even if Carol was in the right (which is debatable) the only thing that people will remember is that she's the one who stopped Tony Stark from appearing in new comic book issues.

    As for in universe itself, I think that Civil War II: The Oath actually suggests Carol might not as popular as it seems on the surface. Captain America was able to make some quite pointed remarks about Carol in his speech, which got the rest of the audience making sharp glares in Carol's general direction. Plus there's the whole private monologue that Captain America had throughout the rest of that issue, arguing how the act of super heroes fighting on Capitol Hill has made the public despise all super heroes (including Carol) on principle.
    Again that's not even being reflected in mighty captain marvel and the ultimates soooo I fail to see your point about her supposedly being despised or superheroes being despises it's funny that only in the oath that this is kinda implied but everywhere else in other titles are superheroes despised? Is carol despised? No not really.

    It's also contradictive because Steve acknowledges the fact that the public has accepted her and even admire her despite how morally questionable and wrong her position may have been during civil war ii.

    And finally carol was justified in defending herself against tony since he started the fight and attacked her first on capital hill he basically forced her to defend herself and when he wouldn't stand down she was forced to put him down by force since he refused to stop attacking after she told him to stand down.

    So she was justified in defending herself against tony who was being psychotic by lashing out in frustration by starting a fight with her and attacking her...she had every right to defend herself.

    And no carol putting miles into custody for questioning isn't a justified reason for tony to attack that's just him lashing out at carol like a psychotic madman.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 04-18-2017 at 09:05 PM.

  15. #135
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    The problem is, just like the Bombshells, Magneto isn’t a real person and can’t make his own decisions. Creators at Marvel Comics make decisions for him, and fans know this. Associating a Holocaust survivor with a Nazi-affiliated group doesn’t make that group any less Nazi-affiliated.

    I isolate this quote because I have difficulty understanding what the writer is getting at here. If anyone can elucidate for me it would be appreciated.

    On the whole, I agree with this article in that I am a disclaimer of the Nick Spencer Steve Rogers converting to Hydra. I think it destroyed the concept of Captain America, because of the arguments the writer made here. I know this is fiction, but I dislike a writer using a character as malleable metal to form him into anything he likes for the sake of entertainment, especially as revolting as the NAZI's, becaue I despise bullies, and Steve Rogers always despised bullies too., and now he has become one

    The bent of the writer seems to be a Jewish agenda, and I am okay with that POV, because it resembles mine.

    The overall thrust of the Secret Empire concept seems to parallel the politics that is going on in America at the moment since the Trump administration of Conservatives have taken power, and replaced the Liberals. What strikes me as shocking is the divide it has caused in the reading community of this story arc of the SE emerging in the Sam Wilson and Steve Rogers books by Nick Spencer. I have been through quite a few transitions in American politics through the medium of Marvel Comics as it tries to make sense of the times they are experiencing, and in most cases it has been with dignity. But this period of the Trump era has evoked more criticism because of the strongly held opposing views in the country, that it has boiled over into full-on antagonism I have never seen before in comics. I can't see any safe road to navigate in the comics at this juncture because not everybody is going to be happy. In fact, there doesn't appear to be a conservative position to take, like there was in the 1960's while the social justice issues were in full swing. We seem to have reached a point where there is no conservative position to hold. So in this moment of fluctuation going on in politics, it reminds me of the "chaos ball" that is kicked into the forward line in the Australian Rules Football game. A man suddenly swings around and the ball, instead of heading to the right, is kicked to the left and no one is ready for it, and the forwards players take advantage of the chaos ball and punish the opposition. I don't think America is ready for the chaos ball.
    Last edited by jackolover; 04-18-2017 at 09:17 PM.

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