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  1. #301
    Veteran Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    A person's memories determine their reality. So having his memories rewritten is altering Steve's reality. Just not everyone else's.

    And having false memories implanted is not mind control. Steve still has free will. He's just making his choices based on false memories.
    Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius. As marvel have only recently referenced in Kot's Secret Avengers.
    There is more to perception than memory. This is about subjective reality. I imagine the theme will develop over the event.

  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    What is wrong with being on the left? I'm sure Nick would say that he is on the left side of things. I never said he was an extremest, he is totally against punching people in the face preemptively, I don't see that as a left or right concept but as one of human decency. He didn't like Sander's gun control stance in that he was not left enough for him.
    I'm not sure how you got from my post that I have something against the left. I'm a Bernie supporter. I pointed out that Spencer was a Clinton Supporter (and very much against Bernie). I didn't once even hint at thinking that Spencer is an extremist. he's very much not. and, just my opinion, but I'd say that part of being a right winger is being ok with applying violence to solve problems. a right winger is more likely to agree with a statement like "I want to nuke the middle east and turn it into glass." they are more prone to dismiss someone as weak or as a bleeding heart if they are against something like punching someone in the face to shut them up. but that's been my limited experience with self-described conservatives. I could show you a few posts from my facebook newsfeed that demonstrate this, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  3. #303
    Veteran Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    Yes, I read it.
    Then why are you even worried about crazy people on the internet who clearly haven't read it, or have only skimmed it, or just want it to be something else just so they can criticise. Trust your own reading. Nowhere does the book imply that the history of Cap after he gets plunged in the pool is any different to what we know. The two possible realities are identical from that point up until Cap gets 'reawakened'. Lifting Mjolnir was clearly still valid.

  4. #304

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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    The book explains it as reality being rewritten, not memories. Is there any reason to think that is false? What exactly was rewritten, though? Did Kobik rewrite history so that the Axis won but in that rewrite the Allies than rewrote reality? So this is a rewrite within a rewrite? Is the resulting rewrite one that is almost identical to the real 616 aside from transition through the reality where the Axis won?

    As for Zemo, no one would remember anything being rewritten, at least that is how reality being rewritten usually works.
    others have explained it better. but sometimes we are seeing things from Steve's perspective. his perspective is inherently flawed. is it really so unbelievable that Elisa/Madame Hydra is lying to Captain America (and the reader)? it doesn't strike you as strange that Steve's mother comes running out of a seemingly deserted building just as Steve is about to give up on Hydra; while Elisa sheepishly looks at the ground? Hydra is a subversive organization. lying and spewing propaganda is what they do. and, thanks to some memory alteration, they have a brand new spokesperson. that's all that is happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  5. #305

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    Yes, I read it.
    did you comprehend it?
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  6. #306
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    did you comprehend it?
    Seriously? You did not just ask me that
    My user name used to be "Dark Knight1047"

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."

    "I am a mad man with a box!"

    Mark Waid--"Man wants to punch a beehive, let him punch a beehive"

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  7. #307

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    Seriously? You did not just ask me that
    unless Kobik altered your memories, I clearly did ask that.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  8. #308
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    unless Kobik altered your memories, I clearly did ask that.
    LOL, good one

    You really shouldn't ask someone that though. It makes it sound like you're questioning someone's intelligence.
    My user name used to be "Dark Knight1047"

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."

    "I am a mad man with a box!"

    Mark Waid--"Man wants to punch a beehive, let him punch a beehive"

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  9. #309
    Senior Member Webhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    others have explained it better. but sometimes we are seeing things from Steve's perspective. his perspective is inherently flawed. is it really so unbelievable that Elisa/Madame Hydra is lying to Captain America (and the reader)? it doesn't strike you as strange that Steve's mother comes running out of a seemingly deserted building just as Steve is about to give up on Hydra; while Elisa sheepishly looks at the ground? Hydra is a subversive organization. lying and spewing propaganda is what they do. and, thanks to some memory alteration, they have a brand new spokesperson. that's all that is happening.
    Man you're one of those vindictive types ain't ya? Hydra has done everything for us, and yet you insist in spreading these ridiculous lies about them! How can someone be so ungrateful to the Supreme Leader and his organization?

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    LOL, good one

    You really shouldn't ask someone that though. It makes it sound like you're questioning someone's intelligence.
    reading comprehension is an area in which anyone can improve. it's not IQ. if you are not understanding Secret Empire, you can reread the issues. you can also google it (or read the interpretations of other readers). from what you've written, I think that you probably need to reread the story.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  11. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    Man you're one of those vindictive types ain't ya? Hydra has done everything for us, and yet you insist in spreading these ridiculous lies about them! How can someone be so ungrateful to the Supreme Leader and his organization?
    Hydra killed my parents and canceled 'Firefly.'
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  12. #312
    Veteran Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I'm not sure how you got from my post that I have something against the left. I'm a Bernie supporter. I pointed out that Spencer was a Clinton Supporter (and very much against Bernie). I didn't once even hint at thinking that Spencer is an extremist. he's very much not. and, just my opinion, but I'd say that part of being a right winger is being ok with applying violence to solve problems. a right winger is more likely to agree with a statement like "I want to nuke the middle east and turn it into glass." they are more prone to dismiss someone as weak or as a bleeding heart if they are against something like punching someone in the face to shut them up. but that's been my limited experience with self-described conservatives. I could show you a few posts from my facebook newsfeed that demonstrate this, though.
    The irony being Spencer going against that specific sentiment got people accusing him of being a "Nazi-Apologist" :P

    All the controversy and white noise over this storyline has gotten really dumb.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  13. #313
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Apparently that's part of it.

    I understand that Captain America is a positive figure but IMO he's been wrongly elevated to "mythical status". People tend to make these characters represent delicate real life issues and wrongly transform them into real life analogues. Like the whole (ridiculous) Professor X as Martin Luther King/Magneto as Malcolm X or Magneto, making these characters actually represent more than what they really are tends to trivialize real word issues.

    Honestly, I think it's just the era we're in where people tend to conflate their personal hatred with other issues. If I remember correctly, 50s Captain America later went insane and explicitly became a white supremacist (it must be noted that Steve Rogers was THE Captain America at the time) while wearing the Captain America suit (yes, he actually attacked black people and called them monkeys). Granted his story was a complicated retcon but in today's climate, it would probably cause a firestorm. As a young black man, the story was difficult to read but I understood the context behind the story.

    My point is that Marvel is telling a story with Captain America. Is it controversial? Absolutely! Is it intriguing, Absolutely! There's been several stories of heroes being mind wiped to work with their worst enemies.However, just because a story is controversial doesn't mean that Marvel should should NOT tell the story. Captain America does NOT represent all of America, Hydra Cap does NOT glorify fascism (Hydra Cap is a facist not a nazi) and this story doesn't NOT permanently damage Captain America anymore than Shazam working for Hitler and beating up Superman (that actually happened too)
    So this story is satisfying to you because having Steve Rogers belittled by being a Nazi Hydra, reduces the chances people will have of seeing Steve Rogers in this Mythical status, and thats a good thing? I suppose that's one way of seeing it. From your perspective that is an understandable outcome.

    I suppose I do come from a tinted glasses stand point regarding what Steve Rogers represents. I never saw Steve do anything other than treat Sam Wilson as a brother, so I am not bitter that a white guy gets so much adulation. However, after reading Sam Wilson Captain America, I can see why a lot of people are getting the message "only a white guy can be Cap". That I think is a very harsh reality, and it ostricises non-whites from position of respectability in certain areas of society. Thank you Nick Spencer for pointing that out to us.

  14. #314
    Veteran Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    So this story is satisfying to you because having Steve Rogers belittled by being a Nazi Hydra, reduces the chances people will have of seeing Steve Rogers in this Mythical status, and thats a good thing? I suppose that's one way of seeing it. From your perspective that is an understandable outcome.

    I suppose I do come from a tinted glasses stand point regarding what Steve Rogers represents. I never saw Steve do anything other than treat Sam Wilson as a brother, so I am not bitter that a white guy gets so much adulation. However, after reading Sam Wilson Captain America, I can see why a lot of people are getting the message "only a white guy can be Cap". That I think is a very harsh reality, and it ostricises non-whites from position of respectability in certain areas of society. Thank you Nick Spencer for pointing that out to us.
    It certainly brings irony to the old cry of letting minority characters slowly emerge and then take the mantle. This story was a deliberate and thoughtful critique on how that is no less difficult and no less problematic. It is also a critique on the way Obama was seen by many sectors of the US. It has been argued Obama was a champion bumped into power over and above the most suitable candidate, but who was clearly the most electable. We even get that candidate reflected in Sharon later in the story. Making this kind of subtextual analogy in Marvel comics and then being accused of being an extreme lefty with a black agenda seems incompatible to me.

    This is also the reason I don't think Sam will be the hero at the end. It would destroy the Obama analogy. Maybe it will be a wishful fulfilment triumph for Sharon, there has to be a good reason why Spencer didn't have her easily swayed in this comic. (And maybe the MCU has a similar plan?)
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-21-2017 at 02:47 AM.

  15. #315
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsLeadHat View Post
    The more I think about this story-line the more I wonder why modern writers only seem engaged when a character is in some way "tarnished" and the idealism they are meant to represent is all but ignored. I do kind of agree that characters like Cap and Superman should be sacrosanct. I certainly think there should be pathos in their stories, but when you start attacking the core of the character, can even a technically proficient story be good? Is there really a point that Spencer is trying to get at here beyond creating controversy and telling a story that interests him? When using iconic characters, isn't there a responsibility beyond "the story I want to tell"? Will Cap be enhanced when all is said and done?
    One perspective is that iconic characters shouldn't be treated as sacrosanct, so it is worthwhile to show them in a more human way so people don't see them unrealistically divine. There is a historical context to that, in that, as someone has mentioned before, that we make our own history as a story, and that directs our society. If we made up this story that Steve Rogers embodies the true American way, then maybe we are decieving ourselves because that story isn't literally true, so its falsehood to try and imagine its true. Maybe we need a reality check every now and then to realign what we should term the American way?

    But like you, I have held that Steve Rogers is sacrosanct. I have yet to hear an argument that contradicts that view.

    Maybe its these cynical times we are in that dictates we can't have people looked at as icons? There is an argument that maybe we shouldn't create these iconic figures because they are nothing but propaganda tools, (and not that Marvel is pushing propaganda, because I think comic books are inherently a specific literature that deals with iconic figures to look up to), so it is better to dispense with these symbols, and make our lives more connected to real figures of significance. But then the argument has to go, "what makes these real figures significant, if they too, are bigots, wife beaters or thieves"? Everybody has negative social issues, so I can see why we create figures of an iconic nature to cling too, whether they be real or fictional, because we like to have the hero, and we enjoy being euphoric for the hero.

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