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  1. #316
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    It remains to be seen, I'll read it but not going in to it with high hopes.

    I hope they don't kill him off it would another Cap dies at the end of the event, He is becoming Jean Grey. At best I would hope it would be the reintroduction of him as the Nomad character. The death of Cap would top off the fan rage that this event is going into.
    I see the universe being returned to it's original ANAD state, all the dead people come back alive again, and nobody remembers Secret Empire or Steves part in it.

  2. #317
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    But like you, I have held that Steve Rogers is sacrosanct. I have yet to hear an argument that contradicts that view.
    This comes down to the old Kirby idea of comic icons being like mythological figures. The old retcon to course correct Cap was all about making sure Cap represented more universally accepted progressive ideas like freedom for all and anti-corruption. The idea that Cap would be overly patriotic and touch on jingoistic sentiment was a step too far if he was to remain a symbol accessible to everyone. Mythological constructs are mutable, they get changed by the people that use them, this concept of comics as a living mythology is so incredibly powerful and perhaps the greatest contribution that comics make to our culture. And yet another reason why Kirby was a genius.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-21-2017 at 03:14 AM.

  3. #318
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Reader View Post
    Maybe the plan was to reveal Steve as a fascist scumbag so everyone would accept Sam as the one true Captain America.
    I never thought of that. It failed miserably if that was the intent, because the whole thrust of Sams story was that he was unworthy of being Cap because he didn't have the conservative mobs backing, so they hounded him out of office.

  4. #319
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    Yes, but if the implications from today's Secret Empire #0 are true spoilers:
    it may not have been Hydra or the Red Skull who brainwashed Steve. Instead, they may have restored his real memories of the real 616 timeline.
    end of spoilers Which makes what happened with Cap even more controversial and divisive than it was already.
    How so? The Allies used a Cosmic Cube to change history so they beat Hydra. How does that make Steve more controversial?

  5. #320
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I never thought of that. It failed miserably if that was the intent, because the whole thrust of Sams story was that he was unworthy of being Cap because he didn't have the conservative mobs backing, so they hounded him out of office.
    I know you are responding to a flippant comment here, but I do wonder if you have actually read Sam's comic if that is your take-away from the story. I certainly don't recognise this. I think it was the common misconception for what the story was about, but it was more about the difficulties of 'representing' in politics. The way Sam tries to follow Steve's lead but remain true to himself and can't square the circle. Not helped by Steve giving him what sounded like good advice that only helped bring him down, and working against him in the background by carefully teasing out the popularist challenges to that progressive stance.

  6. #321
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Reader View Post
    That's true, Secret Invasion was originally the end of the story cycle that began with Avengers Dis-Assembled, but the writers wanted to do Dark Reign mainly because they all wanted a crack at writing Norman Osborn after seeing how fun he was in Ellis's T-Bolts.
    Where did you get that information? I thought Secret Invasion was prologue for Dark Reign, that the only reason for Secret Invasion was to create DR.

  7. #322
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panfoot View Post
    Does this mean we get Teen Steve after the end of this?
    Don't laugh. We've got Teen Tony in Riri already, and Miles as Teen Spidey. You never know.

  8. #323
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majin_O.A.W. View Post
    Maybe when they rest the Universe we'll get 616 Cap instead of 666 Cap.
    A funny thing occured to me. The 8th iteration of the Universe was created synthetically by Reed Richards, but, he used 7th iteration people to populate it. What the 8th iteration needs is the 8th iteration people to populate it. What do they look like? All this ANAD stuff may be just to get us primed to accept the new 8th iteration universe, and whatever that holds, and let go of the 616?

  9. #324
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    I have a lot of issues with this story line but I have to admit they're as much caused by Marvel and Spencer's handling of the PR elements as the story itself.

    "What if Captain America had always been a Nazi?" Is a really strong, and equally problematic hook.

    However, it's not the story either Marvel or Nick Spencer told to tell. Instead, they chose to offset the problematic nature of the story idea by having Steve be a Hydra member and differentiating Hydra from the Nazis. Unfortunately, there are problems with this approach. One problem is that some people can't effectively separate Hydra from the Nazis to a sufficient degree. Another is that the more they rehabilitate Hydra, the weaker the story idea becomes.

    If I understand it correctly, Steve's branch of Hydra is a non-racist internationalist fascist organization that's thousands of years old. They supported the Axis during WWII, but were not Nazis. Part of the problem I have with that idea is that by having them support the Axis during WWII the story is explicitly stating that nothing the Nazis did was a deal-breaker. That's a problem when it comes to rehabilitating the organization because they're effectively saying "the Holocaust wasn't that bad." As for the non-racist internationalist fascist Hydra idea that's a load of complete codswallop. Fascism isn't simply totalitarianism, it's also intrinsically nationalist and by extension racist. One of the key points of fascism is the idea of membership in a chosen people, and that drives racism.

    None of these defenses really address the problematic nature of the story for me, and in fact make things worse because it feels like they're trying to sneak it in.

    I also have issues with the "He's not a Nazi, he's a fascist," argument because it normalizes fascism by implying it's not that bad. It's the same issue I have with the don't hit Nazis brigade. My issue there is that it puts hate speech on the same level as political speech. "Let's deport or execute all members of a specific racial group," does not deserve the same level of consideration as either side of the debate as to whether improved social programs or lower taxes is a better approach to building a society.
    Nice refreshing post Lemurion.

    The Secret Empire story does have an insidious nature to it. I realise also. There seems to be an underlying message that some activities are acceptable if Steve Rogers does it. Nobody has demonised Steve Rogers yet to show him to be evil. We are dangled this tidbit that Steve Rogers intrinsic ultruistic nature is good, so everything he does in SE is for a good purpose, and that's wrong. The writer is not strongly enough making what Steve does reprehensible to people and clouding Steves motivation with perhaps Steve will show some redemption in all this when the shit hits the fan.

  10. #325
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    While you could debate it to a point, I think there's no real question that reality is as it always was and that it's still only Steve's memories that have changed. It's just that the idea was implanted in him that the Kobik reality was the "true" one that he was always meant to be reawakened to that makes him buy into it.
    Let me see. I think Kobik changed reality at its very core. Leaving Steve aside for a moment, I think Kobik made it that Hydra was foiled from winning WWII, and the Allies did it by changing reality (with herself again - the Cosmic Cube) so the Allies won. Enter Steve Rogers, (who was mentored into Hydra from 1922 - 1945, when the Allies changed everything), and he being firmly Hydra, experienced reality changing and his Hydra is exiled to remain behind the scenes, while Steve Rogers awakens in the new Allies history as an Avenger, but Steve retains his memory that Hydra was about to win WWII and nobody else does. That's what I think happened.

    Now Steve is determined to make reality return to the one where Hydra wins WWII and Steves Hydra world comes back.

  11. #326
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post


    Fascism isn't simply totalitarianism, it's also intrinsically nationalist and by extension racist. One of the key points of fascism is the idea of membership in a chosen people, and that drives racism.
    Don't you think there is an intrinsic danger here? The definition of fascism and the ideological underpinnings of fascism are not at all related to racism. By continually using the Nazis as our primary example of fascism we are using a terrible and unrepresentative model. A model that allows fascists to continue to exist because they can easily point to Nazis and say "we are certainly not those guys" and be telling the truth. Nothing about Nazi ideology was clear cut or definitively fascist. It is possible to make an argument that the very beginning of the ideological background, before Hitler was even involved, had a mixture of western supremacy and fascist thought, but even that mixture is in itself not a clear cut example of fascism. Fascists don't have to be racist, they just have to believe in the idea of strength through unity and strong unyeliding leadership.

  12. #327
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Let me see. I think Kobik changed reality at its very core. Leaving Steve aside for a moment, I think Kobik made it that Hydra was foiled from winning WWII, and the Allies did it by changing reality (with herself again - the Cosmic Cube) so the Allies won. Enter Steve Rogers, (who was mentored into Hydra from 1922 - 1945, when the Allies changed everything), and he being firmly Hydra, experienced reality changing and his Hydra is exiled to remain behind the scenes, while Steve Rogers awakens in the new Allies history as an Avenger, but Steve retains his memory that Hydra was about to win WWII and nobody else does. That's what I think happened.

    Now Steve is determined to make reality return to the one where Hydra wins WWII and Steves Hydra world comes back.
    I think the most likely scenario is by the end of secret empire #9 when it releases in August they'll reveal that hydra and the nazis nearly winning World War II and the allies using the cosmic cube in a last ditch attempt to win the war was a product of kobik's reality altering capabilities just as having Steve having his history and memories changed to not only make him think he was always a agent of hydra but that he was in fact a hydra agent.

  13. #328
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I think sometimes Marvel makes characters act a certain way without a clear plan for how they'll come back from it. I mean, I'm a Scarlet Witch fan and it's pretty obvious they did not have a plan for how to make her usable again after they came up with the "no more mutants" idea. And the original Civil War wasn't intended to make Tony Stark hated, it just did because they didn't think it through.

    It's different from the Hal Jordan thing because that was them trying to destroy a character to justify introducing a new one. At least that was part of a plan, even if it was a distasteful plan. But a lot of times I don't think comic editors really think long-term about the viability of characters. Or if they do, the pressure for short-term success is too great.

    Now, Steve Rogers now is a much more popular and famous character than Hal Jordan in the '90s or Tony Stark (or Steve) before the movies. So I'm sure they have more of a plan to keep him viable. That doesn't necessarily mean it'll work.

    Though I think part of what writers and editors like about this kind of situation is that it's a bit like a cliffhanger/deathtrap situation. The point is to set up a situation where it looks like the hero can't possibly escape, and keep the readers guessing about how he'll escape. So we're not asking if Steve will be back to normal, we're asking how.
    The whole Hydra Cap story arc has been vague, so we aren't shown whats behind all the doors, just that Steve is very frustrasting. So I wouldn't be surprised if Steve does escape this and nobody links Steve to this huge wholesale invasion of America, if he simply slips threw the cracks somehow.

  14. #329
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    I think the most likely scenario is by the end of secret empire #9 when it releases in August they'll reveal that hydra and the nazis nearly winning World War II and the allies using the cosmic cube in a last ditch attempt to win the war was a product of kobik's reality altering capabilities just as having Steve having his history and memories changed to not only make him think he was always a agent of hydra but that he was in fact a hydra agent.
    I think it is highly speculative to even guess what the premise of Secret Empire is at this stage, let alone what will happen. This isn't issue one, this is issue zero. There is probably a reason for that. We haven't seen the story take shape yet. Plus, Spencer has lied in solicitations for Cap, and admitted to it afterwards, so even those don't help us.

  15. #330
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    others have explained it better. but sometimes we are seeing things from Steve's perspective. his perspective is inherently flawed. is it really so unbelievable that Elisa/Madame Hydra is lying to Captain America (and the reader)? it doesn't strike you as strange that Steve's mother comes running out of a seemingly deserted building just as Steve is about to give up on Hydra; while Elisa sheepishly looks at the ground? Hydra is a subversive organization. lying and spewing propaganda is what they do. and, thanks to some memory alteration, they have a brand new spokesperson. that's all that is happening.
    I'm just saying that the way Marvel is pitching this goes against what you are seeing in the story. If enemies are just manipulating his memories, that is mind control/brainwashing. Considering those things don't really exist, it more a matter of results that technique. If his memories/perception have simply been altered but in such a way to make him act in a way that he otherwise would not, that is Mind Control/Brainwashing, and Not The Real Steve Rogers. Any hesitation he has, whether it is an actual reality rewrite or memory manipulation, is due to Steve still having the memories of this 'lie' he things he is living.

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