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  1. #331
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I'm just saying that the way Marvel is pitching this goes against what you are seeing in the story. If enemies are just manipulating his memories, that is mind control/brainwashing. Considering those things don't really exist, it more a matter of results that technique. If his memories/perception have simply been altered but in such a way to make him act in a way that he otherwise would not, that is Mind Control/Brainwashing, and Not The Real Steve Rogers. Any hesitation he has, whether it is an actual reality rewrite or memory manipulation, is due to Steve still having the memories of this 'lie' he things he is living.
    But that entirely rests upon how this story will be told. If for example we begin to see other elements of reality shifting towards the Kobik narrative, such as actual evidence of the Allies' conspiracy or other characters being transformed, then we will clearly be in a very different story to one of mind control or brainwashing. Again we can't speculate yet, this story hasn't actually begun, we are in the prelude.

  2. #332
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    A person's memories determine their reality. So having his memories rewritten is altering Steve's reality. Just not everyone else's.

    And having false memories implanted is not mind control. Steve still has free will. He's just making his choices based on false memories.
    That is not what reality means. That is just changing someone's memories to make them think reality has been changed. If you do that in such a way to make someone act differently or in a way you want, that is mind control/brainwashing. There are plenty of times characters have had stuff done to their minds and memories to make them act differently. When Spencer says this is not Mind Control that is short for saying this is not just messing with his mind. If you want to say he is being misleading, take it up with him, not me.

  3. #333
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    But that entirely rests upon how this story will be told. If for example we begin to see other elements of reality shifting towards the Kobik narrative, such as actual evidence of the Allies' conspiracy or other characters being transformed, then we will clearly be in a very different story to one of mind control or brainwashing. Again we can't speculate yet, this story hasn't actually begun, we are in the prelude.
    I was simply addressing the claims that no reality had actually been messed with at any point and that this was all just in Steve's head. I am certainly open to actual reality tampering taking place on some or many levels as Marvel has indicated to be the premise.

  4. #334
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    The book explains it as reality being rewritten, not memories. Is there any reason to think that is false? What exactly was rewritten, though? Did Kobik rewrite history so that the Axis won but in that rewrite the Allies than rewrote reality? So this is a rewrite within a rewrite? Is the resulting rewrite one that is almost identical to the real 616 aside from transition through the reality where the Axis won?

    As for Zemo, no one would remember anything being rewritten, at least that is how reality being rewritten usually works.
    Yes, this is a rewrite inside a rewrite of reality. That's how 3 year old kobik reconciles this story. Who knows? This could be the exact bedtime story the Red Skull read Kobik that first time Kobik said to Steve, "I can fix you", as Crossbones is about to cut Steves head off.

  5. #335
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I was simply addressing the claims that no reality had actually been messed with at any point and that this was all just in Steve's head. I am certainly open to actual reality tampering taking place on some or many levels as Marvel has indicated to be the premise.
    Indeed I am agreeing with you in a way. If Marvel are indicating this story is about realities then we have to assume it will be unless they are telling lies. (Which they have done before.)

    I tend to imagine the most interesting story that could be told, and for me that would be an exploration on subjective reality. That would certainly sit well with Spencer's political analogies so far, but this is comics, he isn't constrained by having to stick to the realities of "alternative facts" and "news manipulation" to tell his story, he can go full-on competing realities and do the Borges thing. He can have a story about one man slowly bringing his own world view into physical reality, not just a political one. The analogy about the dangers of trusting a strong leader, and the various apparatus of power becoming subsumed under a single banner would be very well served by a genre story about the nature of reality being changed by that leader.

  6. #336
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    It was reality being written according to Cap's memories, which are HIGHLY unreliable at the moment. He is an unreliable narrator when it comes to the actual past. He truly believes that's how it went down, and those memories are what shapes who he is at this moment, which is why they are being shown despite being unreliable, but we can't take his memories as evidence of reality. I don't think it was a simple memory rewrite either, some events were changed, but they were localized things done to support this new ideology implanted in his head. But it was a fairly minor as reality warps go, it didn't happen as shown here, with the entire MU rewritten. we know that already, because we saw a far less biased account of events earlier in the Captain America run.
    Then how do explain Elisa Sinclair backing up Steves version of his memory? Is she lying to him, or, is she just going along with Steves tortured mind alteration? What about the appearance of his mother in collusion with these fascists? Is this an LMD? If so, how do you make an LMD of someone without the actual body or memories? That's a lot of smoothing over just there.

  7. #337
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I know you are responding to a flippant comment here, but I do wonder if you have actually read Sam's comic if that is your take-away from the story. I certainly don't recognise this. I think it was the common misconception for what the story was about, but it was more about the difficulties of 'representing' in politics. The way Sam tries to follow Steve's lead but remain true to himself and can't square the circle. Not helped by Steve giving him what sounded like good advice that only helped bring him down, and working against him in the background by carefully teasing out the popularist challenges to that progressive stance.
    That could be true, and there was a redeemable Sam Wilson in there somewhere. The fact that Sam threw down the mantle of Captain America is poignant though, especially after all the negativity surrounding his role. As it turned out, the inciteful agent of all the rabble rousing against Sam was shown to be that Hydra TV telecaster that has been present the whole of Sams arc, so there is that to consider.

  8. #338
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Then how do explain Elisa Sinclair backing up Steves version of his memory? Is she lying to him, or, is she just going along with Steves tortured mind alteration? What about the appearance of his mother in collusion with these fascists? Is this an LMD? If so, how do you make an LMD of someone without the actual body or memories? That's a lot of smoothing over just there.
    I see her as an evocation. It's a kind of backfire to Red Skull's plan. Trying to twist Steve Rodgers into a person that would agree with Red Skull and willfully serve him is a step too far. Steve has a much more idealistic mentality, his reality began to be subverted from Red Skull's plan right from the start. I suspect Kobik has actually granted Steve some of her power, and he is shaping the story. Kobik provided an end point. Which has now passed into recent history. In which Steve and Red Skull are working together in a way Red Skull approved of. But Kobik didn't necessarily create Steve's new story. It may have been Red Skull's bedtime story, it may have been a combination of that and Steve's own outlook.

    If Steve had some power over the narrative it would explain the sudden reversal of his mother, and the way he was swayed by a more pure ideological concept when he was considering running away. It's as if Steve began to reject the story but the end point was too fixed so he had to come up with his own version.

  9. #339
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    That could be true, and there was a redeemable Sam Wilson in there somewhere. The fact that Sam threw down the mantle of Captain America is poignant though, especially after all the negativity surrounding his role. As it turned out, the inciteful agent of all the rabble rousing against Sam was shown to be that Hydra TV telecaster that has been present the whole of Sams arc, so there is that to consider.
    Which is a thin analogy for a very famous TV station that was actively undermining Obama with a political aim in mind.

  10. #340
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I see her as an evocation. It's a kind of backfire to Red Skull's plan. Trying to twist Steve Rodgers into a person that would agree with Red Skull and willfully serve him is a step too far. Steve has a much more idealistic mentality, his reality began to be subverted from Red Skull's plan right from the start. I suspect Kobik has actually granted Steve some of her power, and he is shaping the story. Kobik provided an end point. Which has now passed into recent history. In which Steve and Red Skull are working together in a way Red Skull approved of. But Kobik didn't necessarily create Steve's new story. It may have been Red Skull's bedtime story, it may have been a combination of that and Steve's own outlook.

    If Steve had some power over the narrative it would explain the sudden reversal of his mother, and the way he was swayed by a more pure ideological concept when he was considering running away. It's as if Steve began to reject the story but the end point was too fixed so he had to come up with his own version.
    Wow. That's more than I read into it, but it is possible I suppose. If Kobik made Steve an agent of the "Story" then Steve could change anything he doesn't like and make it like he wants it?

  11. #341
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Which is a thin analogy for a very famous TV station that was actively undermining Obama with a political aim in mind.
    That is spooky, because you've been connecting Sam to Obama now.

  12. #342
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    That is spooky, because you've been connecting Sam to Obama now.
    Well I cant take credit for that. While it seemed possible Spencer actually confirmed this analogy in interview. It's only an analogy of course, but it is a meaningful one. Where I am less certain is Sharon as Clinton, but that also seems a valid analogy to me, apart from the way her story is a little shuffled around for the story.

    Oh, and there is a very clear analogy for the state cyber hacker going rogue developing too. Politics is clearly fertile ground for genre inspiration.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-21-2017 at 06:17 AM.

  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    That is not what reality means. That is just changing someone's memories to make them think reality has been changed. If you do that in such a way to make someone act differently or in a way you want, that is mind control/brainwashing. There are plenty of times characters have had stuff done to their minds and memories to make them act differently. When Spencer says this is not Mind Control that is short for saying this is not just messing with his mind. If you want to say he is being misleading, take it up with him, not me.
    When Spencer says this isn't mind control, he isn't being misleading at all. The main aspect of this story that makes it compelling is that Steve has been free to make his own decisions all along. He was never forced to do anything. He isn't in anyone's thrall, he isn't a slave. He's acting of his own accord.

    "Messing with his mind" and mind control are two different things. In real life you can mess with someone's head through suggestions, false information, and so on and yet they can still make their own decisions. They aren't being controlled.

  14. #344
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    This article lost all credibility with me the moment they called Sam Wilson the first mainstream African American superhero.

  15. #345
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danileriver23 View Post
    This article lost all credibility with me the moment they called Sam Wilson the first mainstream African American superhero.
    It lost credibility for me as soon as it started labelling the politics of the writer as "progressive". In that moment it denied the possibility that there may be a critique of progressive politics at play. It takes the arrogant stance that only the reviewer is capable of having an unbiased approach (even though the review seems very biased) and that a writer that is really not that easy to pin down politically (like most humans) can be pigeon-holed and labelled. Incapable of appreciating any other point of view.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-21-2017 at 07:08 AM.

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