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  1. #346
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I see her as an evocation. It's a kind of backfire to Red Skull's plan. Trying to twist Steve Rodgers into a person that would agree with Red Skull and willfully serve him is a step too far. Steve has a much more idealistic mentality, his reality began to be subverted from Red Skull's plan right from the start. I suspect Kobik has actually granted Steve some of her power, and he is shaping the story. Kobik provided an end point. Which has now passed into recent history. In which Steve and Red Skull are working together in a way Red Skull approved of. But Kobik didn't necessarily create Steve's new story. It may have been Red Skull's bedtime story, it may have been a combination of that and Steve's own outlook.

    If Steve had some power over the narrative it would explain the sudden reversal of his mother, and the way he was swayed by a more pure ideological concept when he was considering running away. It's as if Steve began to reject the story but the end point was too fixed so he had to come up with his own version.
    Your explanation is 70% of what you made up for the story to fit the narrative that you want to it to have. There is absolutely no indication that Kobik has give Steve any new power (subconscious or not). There has been no interaction between Steve and Elisa Sinclair other than Steve's memories so her actions seem to backup the memories so it is difficult to cast her as an opportunist at this time. Elisa Sinclair her self as a Hydra agent never seen until this story line in hiding until Hydra can be renewed (she was recognized by Doctor Faustus and Dr. Zola) backs up his story also. Dealing strictly with the details of the story (not speculation with out evidence) The fact is reality other than Steve's own mind has been altered, if by the US and their WWII cosmic cube, or by Kobik that is yet to be seen.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  2. #347
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Your explanation is 70% of what you made up for the story to fit the narrative that you want to it to have. There is absolutely no indication that Kobik has give Steve any new power (subconscious or not). There has been no interaction between Steve and Elisa Sinclair other than Steve's memories so her actions seem to backup the memories so it is difficult to cast her as an opportunist at this time. Elisa Sinclair her self as a Hydra agent never seen until this story line in hiding until Hydra can be renewed (she was recognized by Doctor Faustus and Dr. Zola) backs up his story also. Dealing strictly with the details of the story (not speculation with out evidence) The fact is reality other than Steve's own mind has been altered, if by the US and their WWII cosmic cube, or by Kobik that is yet to be seen.
    There is a reason I started that with "I see". I am speculating, I am not even totally sold on the theory myself. Indeed there are so many cautious qualifiers in my theory I am not sure how I could be less definite.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-21-2017 at 07:15 AM.

  3. #348
    Mighty Member ian0delond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Your explanation is 70% of what you made up for the story to fit the narrative that you want to it to have. There is absolutely no indication that Kobik has give Steve any new power (subconscious or not). There has been no interaction between Steve and Elisa Sinclair other than Steve's memories so her actions seem to backup the memories so it is difficult to cast her as an opportunist at this time. Elisa Sinclair her self as a Hydra agent never seen until this story line in hiding until Hydra can be renewed (she was recognized by Doctor Faustus and Dr. Zola) backs up his story also. Dealing strictly with the details of the story (not speculation with out evidence) The fact is reality other than Steve's own mind has been altered, if by the US and their WWII cosmic cube, or by Kobik that is yet to be seen.
    Elisa was not recognized by Faustus and Zola.
    In Kobik's version of reality she knew Fautus' father and as far as we know she never met Zola.
    When she recruited her Council nothing in the dialogue indicates they met before.
    Last edited by ian0delond; 04-21-2017 at 09:31 AM.

  4. #349
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian0delond View Post
    Elisa was not recognized by Faustus and Zola.
    In Kobik's version of reality she knew Fautus' father and as far as we know she never met Zola.
    When she recruited her Council nothing in the dialogue indicates they met before.
    Presumably because she is from another version of history.

  5. #350

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Presumably because she is from another version of history.
    why would you assume that?
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  6. #351

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    I still think that Elisa is what's left of Kobik; the part that Selvig saved.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  7. #352
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian0delond View Post
    Elisa was not recognized by Faustus and Zola.
    In Kobik's version of reality she knew Fautus' father and as far as we know she never met Zola.
    When she recruited her Council nothing in the dialogue indicates they met before.
    The reactions indicated recognition rather than the dialogue, and her being Steve's mentor/handler/what ever she had to have met Zola as he is the one that made Steve the super super soldier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I still think that Elisa is what's left of Kobik; the part that Selvig saved.
    That is the most plausible theory I've heard outside of she was a actual person is Steve's past.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 04-21-2017 at 11:36 AM.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  8. #353

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    The reactions indicated recognition rather than the dialogue, and her being Steve's mentor/handler/what ever she had to have met Zola as he is the one that made Steve the super super soldier.
    helmut was his handler
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  9. #354
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    reading comprehension is an area in which anyone can improve. it's not IQ. if you are not understanding Secret Empire, you can reread the issues. you can also google it (or read the interpretations of other readers). from what you've written, I think that you probably need to reread the story.
    No need. I read it and comprehend it just fine. I think if you go back and read the first few pages of the intro, you'll see what I'm talking about.
    I will fight. Forever. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether they are watching or not. I will always fight.---Daredevil

    "There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."---Batman

    "I am a mad man with a box!"---The Doctor

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.---John 3:16

  10. #355
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    No need. I read it and comprehend it just fine. I think if you go back and read the first few pages of the intro, you'll see what I'm talking about.
    I don't think any one can comprehend the story totally at this point.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  11. #356
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I still think that Elisa is what's left of Kobik; the part that Selvig saved.
    We see exactly what happened to the rest of Kobik. She was taken by Ghost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    why would you assume that?
    She isn't recognised by anybody except for Steve, and she clearly recognises him. If like me you see this story as being about two competing realities then she is from the one Steve comes from. She is described in the recap to #14 thus: "Elisa Sinclair has mysteriously resurfaced... as Madame Hydra"
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-21-2017 at 11:50 AM.

  12. #357

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    We see exactly what happened to the rest of Kobik. She was taken by Ghost.
    that was Jolt aka Hallie Takahama

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    She isn't recognised by anybody except for Steve, and she clearly recognises him. If like me you see this story as being about two competing realities then she is from the one Steve comes from. She is described in the recap to #14 thus: "Elisa Sinclair has mysteriously resurfaced... as Madame Hydra"
    explained by her being Kobik. there is no other reality. she simply altered Steve's memories to make him think that he's always been Hydra.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  13. #358
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    explained by her being Kobik. there is no other reality. she simply altered Steve's memories to make him think that he's always been Hydra.
    That isn't how I see it. And we have yet to see conclusive evidence of that. It is also a weak interpretation, the least interesting option.

  14. #359
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    She isn't recognised by anybody except for Steve, and she clearly recognises him. If like me you see this story as being about two competing realities then she is from the one Steve comes from. She is described in the recap to #14 thus: "Elisa Sinclair has mysteriously resurfaced... as Madame Hydra"
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post

    explained by her being Kobik. there is no other reality. she simply altered Steve's memories to make him think that he's always been Hydra.
    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    That isn't how I see it. And we have yet to see conclusive evidence of that. It is also a weak interpretation, the least interesting option.
    It is at least a plausible theory, Kobik can't be completely gone and Selvig was up to something. Steve did not come from a different reality Marvel has stated this is the real Steve Rogers so his memories are either planted or for an the 616 reality being altered. There is no indication that there are different realities, just one that is warped.. the questing is warped by who?
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  15. #360
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    Of course we don't know the full story yet and ill hold out for it

    But

    If it turns out cap was always really hydra in any kind

    If he was a spy against the allies

    If the allies needed the cube to win the war

    I'll be done with marvel with that on top of the other things they have done that have upset me in the last few years

    Which of course is their perogative

    Of course it all remains to be seen and ill hold out

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