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  1. #91
    Always Rakzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baseman View Post
    At the risk of kicking a hornet's nest.How is a underage girl hitting on a older man a example of sexism?
    It was mostly about how it was delivered which basically was an old man's fantasy using a young girl as part of it.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Oh, I see. Maybe I don't have an eye for it or I haven't read enough of his work (which could very well be true) but I haven't read anything sexist in his books.
    A lot of what would constitute as sexist is just considered normal.

    Without getting too into, because I'm not keen on getting involved extended discussions on these topics online. Like with other forms of systemic oppression, we are culturally conditioned to be sexist. So no matter how conscientious we are of not being sexist, there are going to be points in our lives were we are going to be sexist to varying degrees.

    It's like pollution. We can try our best to not contribute to pollution, and do our best to preserve the environment, but going about life means that in some capacity we are going to cause some pollution, and it's accepted as part of life. That doesn't mean we should stop trying, in fact we should do our best to minimize how much we contribute to pollution, but we shouldn't trick ourselves into thinking we are removed from being a contributor to pollution, and that the problem is going to be solved anytime soon.

    And then there are corporations that end up cutting corners and causing massive amounts of damage on their own, like poisoning a water supplies.

    Both are cases are of contributing to pollution, but there is a difference.

    From what I have read, Waid's work falls into the former. Especially more recently, he's been trying to be more aware and considerate, but like the rest of he's going to slip up every now and then. That doesn't mean his work can't be criticized as sexist, but it doesn't mean that by referring to work as sexist, we're calling him out as this horrible person.

    As for actual sexism in his work, it can be something as simple as Superman saving Lois Lane's life in Birthright when Lex threw her off a roof (which many wouldn't even consider sexist, but just a natural part of superhero comics), to his characterization of Wonder Woman in 'Kingdom Come'.

    And just to be clear, I'm not saying someone is a bad person for enjoying sexist media. I myself like Birthright and Kingdome Come quite a bit, and I don't consider myself to be that bad a person.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    A lot of what would constitute as sexist is just considered normal.

    Without getting too into, because I'm not keen on getting involved extended discussions on these topics online. Like with other forms of systemic oppression, we are culturally conditioned to be sexist. So no matter how conscientious we are of not being sexist, there are going to be points in our lives were we are going to be sexist to varying degrees.

    It's like pollution. We can try our best to not contribute to pollution, and do our best to preserve the environment, but going about life means that in some capacity we are going to cause some pollution, and it's accepted as part of life. That doesn't mean we should stop trying, in fact we should do our best to minimize how much we contribute to pollution, but we shouldn't trick ourselves into thinking we are removed from being a contributor to pollution, and that the problem is going to be solved anytime soon.

    And then there are corporations that end up cutting corners and causing massive amounts of damage on their own, like poisoning a water supplies.

    Both are cases are of contributing to pollution, but there is a difference.

    From what I have read, Waid's work falls into the former. Especially more recently, he's been trying to be more aware and considerate, but like the rest of he's going to slip up every now and then. That doesn't mean his work can't be criticized as sexist, but it doesn't mean that by referring to work as sexist, we're calling him out as this horrible person.

    As for actual sexism in his work, it can be something as simple as Superman saving Lois Lane's life in Birthright when Lex threw her off a roof (which many wouldn't even consider sexist, but just a natural part of superhero comics), to his characterization of Wonder Woman in 'Kingdom Come'.

    And just to be clear, I'm not saying someone is a bad person for enjoying sexist media. I myself like Birthright and Kingdome Come quite a bit, and I don't consider myself to be that bad a person.
    That's something to ponder, and honestly something I've subconsciously known, but seldom articulated. The whole saving Lois from the fall thing is particularly interesting because such a thing doesn't scream sexist to me. I don't even know if I agree with it being sexist due to the fact that I'd expect the same if it were Wonder Woman and Steve. For me that's "hero--regardless of gender-- of the comic saves normal supporting character in distress." There are situations where you want the normal person in distress to get out of the situation themselves, but those where you want the hero to get there at the last second. So it's strange to me.

    I don't know, something to ponder.

  4. #94
    Heavy Vinyl Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    That's something to ponder, and honestly something I've subconsciously known, but seldom articulated. The whole saving Lois from the fall thing is particularly interesting because such a thing doesn't scream sexist to me. I don't even know if I agree with it being sexist due to the fact that I'd expect the same if it were Wonder Woman and Steve. For me that's "hero--regardless of gender-- of the comic saves normal supporting character in distress." There are situations where you want the normal person in distress to get out of the situation themselves, but those where you want the hero to get there at the last second. So it's strange to me.

    I don't know, something to ponder.
    Different dynamics and all that.

    A man saving a woman has different connotations to a woman saving a man (Not that there aren't exceptions). I'm not the most eloquent person either, so properly explaining this stuff is more than I'm capable of, another reason why I don't like getting into extended discussions online.

    But hey, I'll try not to derail this thread anymore, so let me just say again that I'd like to see Waid writing Superman.
    Last edited by Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever; 04-19-2017 at 05:05 PM.
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    My "favorite" examples of Waid being sexist, and awkward as a whole, were during his Brave and the Bold run where he basically made Supergirl, an underage girl, start throwing herself to Hal Jordan who was heroically rejecting the temptation (which in retrospective seemed mostly like self-gratification) and during his Flash run where he made the new villain Chillblaine, a poor man's Captain Cold, freeze the Golden Glider to death just to show how "dangerous" he was which gives a completely new meaning to the whole "Women in Refrigerators" trope (and makes me believe that Waid dodged a HUGE bullet since if that would have happened these days the internet would have been asking for his head).
    He went through a season of having new villains smoke the oldies. See Underworld Unleashed.

    The Hal Jordan thing sounds like it almost turned out bad. Another case of an unfortunate pattern.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/super...-dc-1871542/#7

    So apparently Waid is in shaky talks with DC about working on some projects. Given that Millar is doing a Superman book, it's a pretty good bet to assume that Waid might be doing some Superman work if this news in true.

    I could 100% see him working on issue #1000 of Action, but even before that I could see him working on a Superman book. Maybe co write Action with Jurgens? If it's not the 3rd coming of Morrison or Johns, Waid is the only writer that I can see them giving Action or partnering him Jurgens.

    Thoughts? New? Speculation?
    If it were up to me, Mark Waid, the late Dwayne McDuffie or Kurt Busiek would be guiding DC or at least Superman creatively. How they passed those guys over remains a real headscratcher for me.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    A man saving a woman has different connotations to a woman saving a man (Not that there aren't exceptions)
    I guess that's just not my personal belief. I don't see the difference if the situation has no context to it.

    But hey, I'll try not to derail this thread anymore, so let me just say again that I'd like to see Waid writing Superman.
    No need to say sorry. I consider it part of the discussion. Also, yeah, I agree. I'd be down for Waid writing Superman. I think he'd be great.

  8. #98
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    Let me begin by saying I love Mark Waid's work. His Cap runs, Man Out Of Time, and his FF runs are among my favorite Marvel comics in the 30 odd years I've been reading comics.

    His first Flash run is my favorite take on the character and one of my favorite long-form stories in the years I've read comics. I also really enjoyed his JLA stuff (Midsummer's Nightmare was better than Tower of Babel, IMO) and adore Birthright.

    I have also loved Waid's dedication to Superman's iconic status and his similar experience with being shaped morally by comics. Like Waid, Superman's morality was a huge influence on me growing up in an abusive household.

    All that said, Waid has become a bit of a hypocrite in the last few years. He has been rude and dismissive of those who disagree with him politically (I'm not one of those people) and he's also been rude to people who simply want to express their thanks for his work. I attempted to do so and to add to a list of people on Twitter who supported Waid's defense of Superman's no-kill rule and his assertion that Murderer of Steel is garbage, and he blocked me. A friend of mine on Twitter who was still following Waid sent him a message to try and ask Waid to reconsider, but Waid never answered back.

    While not nearly as far-gone as Spencer and Remender, Waid has been extremely volatile towards those who have an opinion that he dislikes. This is not the behavior of a man who claims to have to taken Superman's morality as his own, and I have a feeling he'd use Superman as a means of political proselytizing instead of telling entertaining and inspirational stories.

    I'd rather see Kurt Busiek return to the Superman titles. His run was terrific and cut short. I also wouldn't mind seeing Johns do some work on the post-Reborn Superman, though I doubt he's got the time.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    If it were up to me, Mark Waid, the late Dwayne McDuffie or Kurt Busiek would be guiding DC or at least Superman creatively. How they passed those guys over remains a real headscratcher for me.
    The late and great Dwayne McDuffie, Kurt Busiek, and Mark Waid leading the Superman line sounds amazing. Add in Paul Dini, Gail Simone, and Tom King and we've official won life. Busiek is honestly enough to make me pass out from hype lol

  10. #100
    BACK FROM THE BLEED Atomic Man's Avatar
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    I think it's also important to note that Waid has never hidden his hatred for the post-COIE Superman. Since the Reborn version is essentially that character through the lens of Infinite Crisis, I don't think Waid would be interested in writing him.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Man View Post
    I think it's also important to note that Waid has never hidden his hatred for the post-COIE Superman. Since the Reborn version is essentially that character through the lens of Infinite Crisis, I don't think Waid would be interested in writing him.
    Not completely. There are rather large helping of Pre-Crisis mixed in. Likely enough for him and anyone else to focus on and ignore a lot of the rest.

  12. #102
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    I don't know how he'd do the character before Birthright, but the regular comics we got after the early '00s is just about what you'd expect Waid to jump on.

    Funny thing since Busiek was mentioned: like Stan Lee and Dan Jurgens, he builds my case that a very good Superman writer turns great on Thor. Though maybe not always, because I can't really imagine Waid doing Thor.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Not completely. There are rather large helping of Pre-Crisis mixed in. Likely enough for him and anyone else to focus on and ignore a lot of the rest.
    True, but Waid has always been against Lois and Clark being together and I doubt he's a fan of the idea of Jon. Waid has said more than once that he sees Clark as the disguise; he only wrote Birthright as he did because it was supposed to be a new origin for Superman. The impression he's given is that over time, Clark would have been the disguise for the "real" guy, Superman. That's pretty antithetical to DC's current take on Superman. Ironically enough, Waid would have probably been able to do a lot with the New 52 Superman as Morrison envisioned him. The two of them running the Super books would have likely seen Superman unaffected by Rebirth to a large extent. As a fan of the version we currently have, I'm glad Waid wasn't involved.

    I'd love to see a sequel to Birthright, however.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Funny thing since Busiek was mentioned: like Jurgens, he builds my case that a very good Superman writer turns great on Thor.
    This starts my case on why Jason Aaron should write Superman

  15. #105
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    Waid has written Post-Crisis Superman though. Not much in the main books, but he used Superman in his Justice League run, & Brave and the Bold.

    He's a huge Superman fan, so I can't see him not taking a Superman book because of the version of the character.
    Creativity without constraint comes with responsibility. We do not make art in a vacuum isolated from sociopolitical context - RG

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