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  1. #121
    So much HYPE dawg! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    I'm of two minds. Certainly, there's an ideal Waid/Samnee Superman run to be had. But I don't know that Waid's in a place where that's going to happen. Real-world politics and concerns objectively have a place in Superman, he was created to deal with them...but Waid's attempts at telling progressive superhero stories lately have been ruinously awful. Take Champions #3: a story about a teen superhero team fighting Islamic terrorists is an unbelievably dicey proposition from word go, but when when Hulk mentions "I've got a horse in this race too. The idea of anyone keeping anyone from learning drives me extra green" it takes it into the narrative realm of an awful 80s PSA comic, and by the end when they're manufacturing a 'miracle' it ends up a 60s DC title. Plenty of titles and creators at both of the Big Two are dealing with social issues in their books with tact and understanding and conviction, whereas his work in this area of late, from Champions to Strange Fruit, can't seem to think of anything beyond hitting the problem with a cudgel. It's the epitome of a guy making a show of how woke he is while not being nearly as much so as he thinks, and if he took that approach with him to Superman it could no fooling end up Grounded-level terrible. If he just did high-flying moral adventure stories though, and someone like Margueritte Bennett handled "Superman deals with current affairs"-type stories, I think it'd be a new golden age.
    Hahaha Champions #3 is too funny. But I chalked it up to "Marvel #woke." The ham-fisted nature could've been them, but then you bring up Strange Fruit and I remember what levels of cringe Waid on his own is capable of when it comes to being socially conscious.

    Making a socially conscious comic isn't something all writers can do. Our current social climate makes it very alluring, but in reality some writers might be better suited to just writing fun pop moral adventures. Waid might be better suited to those, and he might end up having more fun.

  2. #122
    Veteran Member sakuyamons's Avatar
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    I love Champions, but if we are going to talk about cringy scenes, then nothing beats when he used "Lit" in the wrong context.

  3. #123
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakuyamons View Post
    I love Champions, but if we are going to talk about cringy scenes, then nothing beats when he used "Lit" in the wrong context.
    Nothing is as rich in potential for cringeworthiness as middle-aged adults trying to affect the lingo of teenagers. Remember Snapper Carr's "hipsville" dialogue during the Silver Age?

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  4. #124
    So much HYPE dawg! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Aw Mark Waid, no one's gonna be mad at you if you just keep your dialect to what you're personally comfortable with using in real life.

    Regardless of how much I've cringed at his current stuff, he's still a writer that I'd like to see just do some fun and classic stories staring Superman and his new fam.

    I honestly think he'd be pretty into it.

  5. #125
    Clem Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever's Avatar
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    People that are new to the whole social justice thing can take a while to adjust, it's a lot to take in at once. I wouldn't write off Waid's writing just yet.
    First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice

  6. #126
    Always Rakzo
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    Some writers CAN write teenagers and even children (Tomasi's recent work is proof of that).

    However, Waid has always been particularly terrible at writing teens. Whenever he was allowed to write young characters he made them tolerable at best and insufferable at worst. He's often credited for the creation of Impulse as an example of how he's able to write kids but most of the time when he actually handled Bart, he wrote him quite obnoxious and I would argue that people's best memories of the character come from other writers like Peter David, William Messner-Loebs and Todd Dezago. Not to mention other awful examples from him like Wally's children and the whole Legion of Super-Heroes.

    If Waid is eventually asked to write Superman I hope someone has the good sense of making him stay away from Jon.

  7. #127
    So much HYPE dawg! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Some writers CAN write teenagers and even children (Tomasi's recent work is a proof of that).
    Not gonna lie, Tomasi really surprised me with how well he writes kids. I think it's because he's not self-conscious about how they might sound. The confidence in his take makes you go with it. Even the stuff that should be corny. It comes off more like kids from Stranger Things.

    However, Waid has always been particularly terrible at writing teens. When he was allowed to write young characters he made them tolerable at best and insufferable at worst. He's often credited for the creation of Impulse as an example of how he's able to write kids but most of the time when he actually handled Bart, he wrote him quite obnoxious and I would argue that people's best memories of the character come from other writers like Peter David, William Messner-Loebs and Todd Dezago. Not to mention other awful examples like Wally's children and the whole Legion of Super-Heroes.
    Whoa, I'd have to read some of these for myself lol I wonder how I'll take it

    If Waid is eventually asked to write Superman I hope someone has the good sense of making him stay away from Jon.
    I dunno, I'm still pretty interested in how he'd write Jon. But in case it comes off too try-hard, maybe he should take Action?

  8. #128
    Senior Member Thor2014's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvenger View Post
    I agree Waid has written better Superman stories in the past but past Waid is not present Waid. What he writes like now is not nearly as good as how well he used to write. Tomasi and Gleason's Superman is still enjoyed by a lot of fans online and Jurgens' Action Comics is a decent read. Losing that consistency would be bad for the character when consistency was New 52 Supes' biggest problem.
    Maybe he just needs to get inspired. He's a big Superman guy, give him a chance at a nice, meaty run and I'd bet he'd give it his all.

  9. #129
    Veteran Member rui no onna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Nothing is as rich in potential for cringeworthiness as middle-aged adults trying to affect the lingo of teenagers.
    Yes. This so much.

    I know people complain about Jurgens' fuddy-duddy writing but I'll take Jurgens' Action Rebirth over Waid's Champions.
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  10. #130
    ATOMIC SUPERMAN, EARTH-25 Atomic Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason white reborn View Post
    i have read one of them...kingdom come

    it is awful for many reasons(norman kay is a awful protagonist who is of the worst type....a observer) and it was the comic that inspired the worst comic couple i have ever let my eyes on

    wonder/supes

    if nothing else i would shit on that comic just for that precendent
    That "precedent" was not set by KC; it existed in the Bronze Age and was something Byrne played with, albeit in a minor way, post-COIE.

    Also, if all you came away with after reading KC was that Norman McKay was awful because he was an "observer" and the WW/Superman angle, you clearly didn't give it much of a shot. In fact, I find it hard to believe you've actually read it, since you admit to not reading Birthright but bashed it because of Superman's vegan diet. That's like reading Dracula and thinking it's a treatise on the folkloric customs and beliefs of Eastern Europe. Admit it: you've read a page or two of KC, but have jumped on the hate bandwagon because hey, that's what all the cool kids are doing these days. I imagine you also think Watchmen is the greatest literary work of the 20th century and that The Dark Knight Returns is what brought The Batman "back to his roots."

    Quote Originally Posted by jason white reborn View Post
    he is also from "house of meaningless and useless identity politics" marvel...do you really want him to touch superman after being with them?
    If you'd read my comments, you'd see that I actually don't want Waid to write Superman with his current penchant for political propagandizing. I've had enough of that in the last decade to fill a few lifetimes, and we sure as hell don't need another Grounded after all that's been achieved with Rebirth and Reborn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Aw Mark Waid, no one's gonna be mad at you if you just keep your dialect to what you're personally comfortable with using in real life.

    Regardless of how much I've cringed at his current stuff, he's still a writer that I'd like to see just do some fun and classic stories staring Superman and his new fam.

    I honestly think he'd be pretty into it.
    I'd love to see Waid do these kinds of stories as well, but I don't know that he's capable of that in his current frame of mind. He really only succeeded (IMO, of course) in one comeback: his second run on Cap. That was inspired storytelling that I always bring up to people who defend Marvel's constant reassigning of heroic identities. There are plenty of stories left to be told with these characters, and Waid's exploration of Cap's relationship with his shield was genius.

    I'm afraid of 2017 Waid's take on Superman, and it seems from his comments at Wonder Con that his dream gig at DC would be working on a Golden Age-inspired take on Captain Marvel. I'd much rather see that than a preachy Superman run that leaves the same bad taste I still have from reading Remender's Dimension Z garbage.

  11. #131
    So much HYPE dawg! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Man View Post
    I'm afraid of 2017 Waid's take on Superman, and it seems from his comments at Wonder Con that his dream gig at DC would be working on a Golden Age-inspired take on Captain Marvel.
    Yeah but DC might just be like "ay man, write Superman. It's what a lot of people expect. Just do fun stories though"

    Then maybe Waid guest stars Billy in his run, and he and Jon meet, and Cap and Superman go on an adventure? I remember Morrison describing Cap/Shazam one of the "real life sons of Superman" so that meeting is something I think could be super fun if Waid is interested.

  12. #132
    ATOMIC SUPERMAN, EARTH-25 Atomic Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Yeah but DC might just be like "ay man, write Superman. It's what a lot of people expect. Just do fun stories though"

    Then maybe Waid guest stars Billy in his run, and he and Jon meet, and Cap and Superman go on an adventure? I remember Morrison describing Cap/Shazam one of the "real life sons of Superman" so that meeting is something I think could be super fun if Waid is interested.
    Waid would certainly be the guy to do it. He wants to go back to the notion that Billy and Cap are two separate beings. That would be a great way to give the premise a shot in the arm and make it far more compelling than a punk kid turning into an adult with the mind of a punk kid. I wonder if DC could work something out with Marvel to get shared use of the Captain Marvel title? Waid doesn't seem too keen on the current status quo.

  13. #133
    So much HYPE dawg! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Man View Post
    Waid would certainly be the guy to do it. He wants to go back to the notion that Billy and Cap are two separate beings. That would be a great way to give the premise a shot in the arm and make it far more compelling than a punk kid turning into an adult with the mind of a punk kid. I wonder if DC could work something out with Marvel to get shared use of the Captain Marvel title? Waid doesn't seem too keen on the current status quo.
    I super doubt DC'll ever get the name back. Not with a billion dollar movie soon to be made from the name.

    It'd be cool to see the split personality come back, but I'm not sure they'll ever really do it again. It's likely they'll make it so Shazam just has added wisdom that helps him. Also they'll likely made Billy more likable.

    But the split would be cool.

  14. #134
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I think Billy and Cap Marvel being one is neat. But in any case, while I can totally see them trying to push Shazam by bringing in a big name like Waid from the cold, it's just downright criminal if someone other than Jeff Parker gets the big crack. I just don't think Parker/Shaner could be beat there, even if Billy not being a "woke millenial" makes him easy to write.

  15. #135
    ATOMIC SUPERMAN, EARTH-25 Atomic Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I think Billy and Cap Marvel being one is neat. But in any case, while I can totally see them trying to push Shazam by bringing in a big name like Waid from the cold, it's just downright criminal if someone other than Jeff Parker gets the big crack. I just don't think Parker/Shaner could be beat there, even if Billy not being a "woke millenial" makes him easy to write.
    Completely agree. Maybe Waid could do a mini-series or even "Shazam: Earth One," and Parker/Shaner could get an ongoing Captain Marvel series.

    I still want to see Shaner do more Superman work, too.

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