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  1. #31
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by v_jeovanne View Post
    I'm sure that the problems in their relationship are exclusive to Morrison, before they never showed problems, in addition in the other titles X was still shown as a couple.
    Nope, as Ulfhammer said, Jean had problems with Scott's approach to the relationship in X-Factor too, something that Morrison was aware of and even referenced.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Jean and Scott would probably have broken up and she would have gotten together with Wolverine at least for a while. Their marriage wasn't in great shape even before the incident with Emma, and Marvel wasn't big on marriages at that time too. I'm sure the movies at the time which were very Jean/Wolverine heavy would have influenced them to make Jean and Logan official in the comics.

    As for the big stories and events it is tough to say. Most of the ones that lead up to Schism probably still happened basically the same way. The main beats of them at least. Cyclops importance would obviously take a hit as Jean probably eats up some of his story roles. Instead of having Wolverine and Cyclops be the two big figures after Xavier's fall they would have put Jean in the middle of them. Two main figures becomes three. So the tension between Cyclops and Wolverine would have probably been there from a lot earlier on and I think there is still a Schism between them with Jean being forced to take a side.

    Hope obviously doesn't exists and Jean then eats up her role with her trying to find a way to reboot the mutants. So maybe it is Bishop trying to kill her with Cable trying to save her. Or maybe they would have killed off Cyclops sooner and the Schism would have been between Wolverine and Jean. Since Cyclops would not be as big or important a figure Marvel wouldn't need to keep him around. So after Xavier's disgrace Jean, Wolverine and Scott take over, but something happens that leads to Scott's death and that causes Jean and Wolverine to break up and starts a schism between them.

    So instead of the Jean Grey School it becomes the Scott Summers School. I suppose in this case Jean probably falls into the role of Cyclops with Wolverine probably staying the same. I don't think Marvel would have thrown Wolverine under the bus, especially as he was an Avenger at the time, so Jean would become the antagonist to him like how Cyclops was. There is no doubt that AvX still happens as that was an event to help promote the Avengers by taking an ongoing X-Men story and making it an Avengers one and turning them into an opponent for the Avengers.

    So instead of Cyclops Jean takes the Phoenix and probably goes Dark Phoenix again and kills Xavier forcing Wolverine to fight her and maybe to come full circle kills her. Which would make him extremely depressed and would lead into a Death of Wolverine story. So all 3 of them wide up dead eventually but it just happened in a different order, lol. Then after AvX Bendis still takes over the X-Men and has Beast (for a different reason) bring the O5 to the present anyway. Bendis doesn't like continuity and the O5 were blank slates to him, so he probably just liked the idea of writing teen characters separated from so much continuity.
    I don't agree with the sentiment that Cyclops and Jean would've broken up. And even if it did, I don't see her getting together with Wolverine. Early on in Morrison's run, Wolverine said outright that it would never work between them. Even during the Planet X arc, he told Jean that Cyclops still loved her and he "had some growing up to do." Wolverine clearly accepted that he and Jean couldn't work in the long run. I also think he understood that over time, Cyclops and Jean will find a way to work through their issues. They've worked through death, clones, and time-traveling children. I don't see anything in the Morrison run that was insurmountable. The only thing that could've possibly broke them up was death and I think Morrison even knew this to some extent. Even Whedon knew it when he had Emma admit outright that she "ranked below a corpse." While I do think Jean surviving would still lead to some tension between her and Cyclops, I think in the long run they would've worked things out.

    This seems to be the main point of contention though. Some believe their marriage would've dissolved. Some believe it would've continued. It may actually warrant a separate thread entirely. But based on the actual content of Morrison's run and the many X-men comics that preceded it, I think it's more likely that the marriage would've remained, assuming Quesada didn't demand it get retconned.

    I also don't agree that Schism would've happened in the same way. That was largely a clash between Cyclops and Wolverine. If Jean were present, I don't thinks he would have let it get that severe. Now there still would've been a schism of sorts. But if it was going to be between anyone, it would've been between Jean Grey and Charles Xavier. Xavier trusted Jean to carry on his dream after he stepped down. However, the events of M-Day may change that. She might start making decisions that Xavier doesn't agree with. It could very well lead to a sort of psychic clash of sorts, one that ends with Xavier restarting his school while Jean stays on the west coast. I think thematically, it makes sense that Xavier's star pupil would eventually rebel on him. That would be a much better schism, in my opinion.

    I also don't think that Jean's presence precludes Hope's existence. M-Day happens regardless of Jean's presence. So the need to fix it is still there. Hope would probably still be born in the same way. The Messiah Trilogy really wouldn't change that much, but I do think Jean would've handled Cable differently. She might have tried to get him to stay in the present so they could raise the baby. I can see her wanting to protect that child. However, regardless of what she does, it's really hard to say whether AvX would play out. Depending on how Jean would handle Hope, it could set up a very different kind of conflict involving the Phoenix. We can speculate, but the possibilities at that point just become too broad.
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  3. #33
    Rookie Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    This thread honestly makes me quite sad. I was gonna to give my 2 cents now but I guess I'll have to do it later...
    I would love to hear what you have to say. If your feeling better later please come back and let us know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    So instead of the Jean Grey School it becomes the Scott Summers School. I suppose in this case Jean probably falls into the role of Cyclops with Wolverine probably staying the same. I don't think Marvel would have thrown Wolverine under the bus, especially as he was an Avenger at the time, so Jean would become the antagonist to him like how Cyclops was. There is no doubt that AvX still happens as that was an event to help promote the Avengers by taking an ongoing X-Men story and making it an Avengers one and turning them into an opponent for the Avengers.

    So instead of Cyclops Jean takes the Phoenix and probably goes Dark Phoenix again and kills Xavier forcing Wolverine to fight her and maybe to come full circle kills her. Which would make him extremely depressed and would lead into a Death of Wolverine story. So all 3 of them wide up dead eventually but it just happened in a different order, lol. Then after AvX Bendis still takes over the X-Men and has Beast (for a different reason) bring the O5 to the present anyway. Bendis doesn't like continuity and the O5 were blank slates to him, so he probably just liked the idea of writing teen characters separated from so much continuity.
    I'm struggling with Jean being a fit for Scott's mutant revolutionary role. I'm not sure Marvel would try to make this stick to Jean. It's hard to say as we're seeing Marvel handling Jean a certain way now due to her long absence in current continuity. How would this be different if she were alive all these years? How many "Jean was Right" taglines would be popping up out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    This seems to be the main point of contention though. Some believe their marriage would've dissolved. Some believe it would've continued. It may actually warrant a separate thread entirely. But based on the actual content of Morrison's run and the many X-men comics that preceded it, I think it's more likely that the marriage would've remained, assuming Quesada didn't demand it get retconned.
    I am surprised that this is sort of the biggest bone of contention in this thread. It seems that most agree Jean would have significantly changed the direction of modern continuity if she were to have survived. My 2 cents, I'm sure Jean and Scott's marriage would have survived, or if broken, would have been so only temporarily. Their mutual affection has been a constant for so long.

  4. #34
    About damn time. Bart's Avatar
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    It would have been a lot more interesting having Scott and Emma try to be a couple WHILE Jean is alive versus what they did. It felt like they had to have Jean dead so Quesada can have his hard on for Emma and legitimately keep her with Scott. He hates red heads for whatever reason.

    And a lot of the events would have taken a different turn. I'd imagine in the end it would have been Jean's Xavier to Scott's Magneto which would have been awesome and exciting to see. It would have been too organic and made too much sense. Instead we got Wolverine as headmaster to oppose Scott.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    It would have been a lot more interesting having Scott and Emma try to be a couple WHILE Jean is alive versus what they did. It felt like they had to have Jean dead so Quesada can have his hard on for Emma and legitimately keep her with Scott. He hates red heads for whatever reason.

    And a lot of the events would have taken a different turn. I'd imagine in the end it would have been Jean's Xavier to Scott's Magneto which would have been awesome and exciting to see. It would have been too organic and made too much sense. Instead we got Wolverine as headmaster to oppose Scott.
    I share the sentiment. I think Quesada and the powers that be understood that Cyclops and Emma really couldn't be together in a realistic scenario with Jean Grey alive. They couldn't even be together without Jean Grey forcing the issue, which is exactly what happened in Here Comes Tomorrow. So in a scenario where Jean lives, I don't think Cyclops and Emma would've been a thing. It would've been akin to Cyclops' passing interest in Psylocke or Jean's passing interest in Logan. It would've been mostly stray thoughts, but nothing more. In the long run, Cyclops and Jean Grey would've probably stayed together.

    I don't agree that the schism would've happened between Jean and Cyclops though. One of the big impacts of Jean's death was that she was no longer around to influence Cyclops. Conversely, Emma was around and she didn't influence him in a very positive way. She pushed him to be more vigilant and militaristic. That's a big part of what led Cyclops down the path he went. Jean wouldn't have pushed him like that. She wouldn't have held him back, but she wouldn't have pushed him the way Emma did. And he'd listen to her, just as many X-men listened to Jean over Emma. She just has that kind of pull on people. Plus, if Jean played the role of a diplomat, which was more her style than Cyclops, then he never would've had to go in that direction in the first place.

    If there is a schism in this scenario, it's not between Jean and Cyclops. It's between Jean and Xavier. We don't know how Jean would've reacted to the events of M-Day, but I can't imagine she'd stick to the same script when the entire mutant race is on the brink. I can see her and Xavier diverging gradually as the X-men struggled to survive. I can then see it really getting bad after Messiah Complex. It could culminate in an AvX scenario where Jean is the one who kills Charles Xavier and not Cyclops.

    Imagine that for a moment. Jean, the one Xavier entrusted to carry on his dream, ends up being the one who kills him in her effort to save the future of the mutant race. Now Jean could certainly be under the influence of the Phoenix again. Hope's presence, along with Wanda's influence, could cause all sorts of chaos that leads to a confrontation where Xavier just can't avoid it. Jean has already endured the burden of indirectly destroying a planet. I think the burden of killing Xavier, even if it's indirect, would be really devastating, but very powerful story that would've taken Jean in a different direction. Too bad we'll probably never know what that story could've been.
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  6. #36
    Veteran Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    I don't agree with the sentiment that Cyclops and Jean would've broken up. And even if it did, I don't see her getting together with Wolverine. Early on in Morrison's run, Wolverine said outright that it would never work between them. Even during the Planet X arc, he told Jean that Cyclops still loved her and he "had some growing up to do." Wolverine clearly accepted that he and Jean couldn't work in the long run. I also think he understood that over time, Cyclops and Jean will find a way to work through their issues. They've worked through death, clones, and time-traveling children. I don't see anything in the Morrison run that was insurmountable. The only thing that could've possibly broke them up was death and I think Morrison even knew this to some extent. Even Whedon knew it when he had Emma admit outright that she "ranked below a corpse." While I do think Jean surviving would still lead to some tension between her and Cyclops, I think in the long run they would've worked things out.

    This seems to be the main point of contention though. Some believe their marriage would've dissolved. Some believe it would've continued. It may actually warrant a separate thread entirely. But based on the actual content of Morrison's run and the many X-men comics that preceded it, I think it's more likely that the marriage would've remained, assuming Quesada didn't demand it get retconned.

    I also don't agree that Schism would've happened in the same way. That was largely a clash between Cyclops and Wolverine. If Jean were present, I don't thinks he would have let it get that severe. Now there still would've been a schism of sorts. But if it was going to be between anyone, it would've been between Jean Grey and Charles Xavier. Xavier trusted Jean to carry on his dream after he stepped down. However, the events of M-Day may change that. She might start making decisions that Xavier doesn't agree with. It could very well lead to a sort of psychic clash of sorts, one that ends with Xavier restarting his school while Jean stays on the west coast. I think thematically, it makes sense that Xavier's star pupil would eventually rebel on him. That would be a much better schism, in my opinion.

    I also don't think that Jean's presence precludes Hope's existence. M-Day happens regardless of Jean's presence. So the need to fix it is still there. Hope would probably still be born in the same way. The Messiah Trilogy really wouldn't change that much, but I do think Jean would've handled Cable differently. She might have tried to get him to stay in the present so they could raise the baby. I can see her wanting to protect that child. However, regardless of what she does, it's really hard to say whether AvX would play out. Depending on how Jean would handle Hope, it could set up a very different kind of conflict involving the Phoenix. We can speculate, but the possibilities at that point just become too broad.
    I think they would have broken up in part due to Marvel not really liking their characters being married at the time. If they were willing to break up Spider-man and MJ I don't see Scott and Jean staying together, and if they are no longer married then I don't see Wolverine having any problem with going after Jean himself.

    Schism happens for the same reason I think AvX happened. It is editorial mandated, but Xavier was not a big character at that time. I don't think he was important enough to be a cause for a Schism. He had pretty much fallen off the X-Books completely around that time. So the Schism would need to be between the big X-Men left, like a Wolverine, Cyclops, or Jean. If Jean was still around I don't really think they change their views on Magneto. Marvel never seem to want to make him a villain again even when they had the opportunity. They retconned what Morrison did with him, in AvX they walked him back being a villain and sort of made Scott take most/all of the blame, following AvX they teased him being a "traitor" but they walked that back, and even in IvX they could have made him a villain but they put the blame all on Emma. So with Wolverine being an Avenger they wouldn't have made him the antagonist in Schism and AvX and it would have to be Jean and/or Cyclops.

    If Hope was still created I think they would still have Cable, or someone, raise her in different times so they could quickly age Hope up, but if Jean was still around I imagine there would probably be a lot of speculation about her being Jean's daughter, but it is tough to say what role she would play. Maybe they would have found a way to take Jean off the table to focus on Hope? Put Jean in a comma or something? I have no idea.

  7. #37
    Rookie Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    It would have been a lot more interesting having Scott and Emma try to be a couple WHILE Jean is alive versus what they did. It felt like they had to have Jean dead so Quesada can have his hard on for Emma and legitimately keep her with Scott. He hates red heads for whatever reason.

    And a lot of the events would have taken a different turn. I'd imagine in the end it would have been Jean's Xavier to Scott's Magneto which would have been awesome and exciting to see. It would have been too organic and made too much sense. Instead we got Wolverine as headmaster to oppose Scott.
    I like your take on the topic. It would have been agonizingly good to watch all those awkward moments between Jean, Scott and Emma play out. I also think it would be doomed to failure. Like a car accident it would be horrible yes but you just can't look away.

    Your point got me thinking if Jean and Scott had ever really been on the opposite side of a divisive issue before? I don't recall a case (other than Emma) where that happened so I'm not sure I see Scott and Jean diverting far enough apart to come to blows (ala AvX). I am still missing a chunk of the 90's though so I could be wrong.

  8. #38
    Rookie Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    It would have been a lot more interesting having Scott and Emma try to be a couple WHILE Jean is alive versus what they did. It felt like they had to have Jean dead so Quesada can have his hard on for Emma and legitimately keep her with Scott. He hates red heads for whatever reason.

    And a lot of the events would have taken a different turn. I'd imagine in the end it would have been Jean's Xavier to Scott's Magneto which would have been awesome and exciting to see. It would have been too organic and made too much sense. Instead we got Wolverine as headmaster to oppose Scott.

    It also could have gone Jean's Magneto to Ororo's Xavier...

  9. #39
    Junior Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    I don't think much would have changed, except Schism, it would probably be between Cyclops and Jean. Or to everybody surprise Jean could have sided with Scott in Regenesis.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Nope, as Ulfhammer said, Jean had problems with Scott's approach to the relationship in X-Factor too, something that Morrison was aware of and even referenced.
    as Ulfhammer said, It wasn't a major problem for their marriage.

  11. #41
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by v_jeovanne View Post
    as Ulfhammer said, It wasn't a major problem for their marriage.
    Maybe not then, but it is entirely plausible that it snowballed by the NXM era.

  12. #42
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    It felt like they had to have Jean dead so Quesada can have his hard on for Emma and legitimately keep her with Scott. He hates red heads for whatever reason.
    When was it revealed that Quesada has a hard on for Emma? And he hated Dazzler too, who is not a redhead. He didn't allow Bendis to use her in his Avengers run when he wanted to.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    I share the sentiment. I think Quesada and the powers that be understood that Cyclops and Emma really couldn't be together in a realistic scenario with Jean Grey alive. They couldn't even be together without Jean Grey forcing the issue, which is exactly what happened in Here Comes Tomorrow. So in a scenario where Jean lives, I don't think Cyclops and Emma would've been a thing. It would've been akin to Cyclops' passing interest in Psylocke or Jean's passing interest in Logan. It would've been mostly stray thoughts, but nothing more. In the long run, Cyclops and Jean Grey would've probably stayed together.

    I don't agree that the schism would've happened between Jean and Cyclops though. One of the big impacts of Jean's death was that she was no longer around to influence Cyclops. Conversely, Emma was around and she didn't influence him in a very positive way. She pushed him to be more vigilant and militaristic. That's a big part of what led Cyclops down the path he went. Jean wouldn't have pushed him like that. She wouldn't have held him back, but she wouldn't have pushed him the way Emma did. And he'd listen to her, just as many X-men listened to Jean over Emma. She just has that kind of pull on people. Plus, if Jean played the role of a diplomat, which was more her style than Cyclops, then he never would've had to go in that direction in the first place.

    If there is a schism in this scenario, it's not between Jean and Cyclops. It's between Jean and Xavier. We don't know how Jean would've reacted to the events of M-Day, but I can't imagine she'd stick to the same script when the entire mutant race is on the brink. I can see her and Xavier diverging gradually as the X-men struggled to survive. I can then see it really getting bad after Messiah Complex. It could culminate in an AvX scenario where Jean is the one who kills Charles Xavier and not Cyclops.

    Imagine that for a moment. Jean, the one Xavier entrusted to carry on his dream, ends up being the one who kills him in her effort to save the future of the mutant race. Now Jean could certainly be under the influence of the Phoenix again. Hope's presence, along with Wanda's influence, could cause all sorts of chaos that leads to a confrontation where Xavier just can't avoid it. Jean has already endured the burden of indirectly destroying a planet. I think the burden of killing Xavier, even if it's indirect, would be really devastating, but very powerful story that would've taken Jean in a different direction. Too bad we'll probably never know what that story could've been.
    Yes, I think if Jean had lived Cyclops never would have left her for Emma. A hot affair is not LOVE, and there was no indication that Cyclops was remotely in love with Emma. Honestly if he hadn't been recently possessed by Apocalypse, they could not have even done the affair as Emma Frost would have been the absolute LAST woman that Cyclops would have touched with a ten foot pole. Emma and Cyclops as a couple was a ridiculous FARCE. Thank the lord Tyke has the sense to loathe Emma, especially after she deceived everyone.

    I'm not an Emma hater, I loved her as the White Queen and as the headmistress. I never really felt her as Cyclops's lover. She had more chemistry with Sebastian Shaw, Magneto, or Banshee. As the White Queen was introduced by Claremont, she was an older woman. Beautiful, but older. She referred to the X-Men as young people and kids.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    When was it revealed that Quesada has a hard on for Emma? And he hated Dazzler too, who is not a redhead. He didn't allow Bendis to use her in his Avengers run when he wanted to.
    Quesada inserted Emma in Jean (and to an extent Charles's place) and gave her a huge push throughout Marvel.

  15. #45
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    I'm not an Emma hater, I loved her as the White Queen and as the headmistress. I never really felt her as Cyclops's lover. She had more chemistry with Sebastian Shaw, Magneto, or Banshee. As the White Queen was introduced by Claremont, she was an older woman. Beautiful, but older. She referred to the X-Men as young people and kids.
    EXACTLY. During Gen X she conferred with Charles as a peer and their conversations were framed as if she was closer to his age than the main X-Men. Which also helped with the Banshee ship teasing when I think about it.

    And when Cyke first approached her with his marital problems in Morrison, she called herself "Auntie" Emma.
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