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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I'm just going to point out, since this keeps getting mentioned, but if reality gets changed, usually no one or very, very few people know. Like, the whole of existence being all but destroyed except some fragments that Dr Doom and a couple others managed to hold together and eventually lead to recreating the entirety of existence.

    In short, not remembering a past/alternate reality is not proof reality has not been altered, it is exactly what is expected.
    but what does your gut tell you? if you had to write yourself out of this situation, would you choose option A) Steve was always Hydra and the Allies used the cosmic cube to change things--yet the only one who remembers is a villain or B) said villain altered Steve's memories to further her own plans?
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
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  2. #32
    Mighty Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    According to this new story (which is just a shock and awe story by Marvel) he was always a spy:

    http://screenrant.com/captain-americ...vil-explained/

    Basically, Marvel just rewrote history on one of their most brilliant, inspiring and charismatic characters of all time. This is no longer the Marvel 616 Universe. This is something else altogether.

    Because if Steve was always a spy, then a lot of things don't make sense and could never have happened. Just one, ONE, example is him lifting Thor's hammer, Mjolnir. He would not have been worthy.
    Well yeah, it's the Prime Universe now. :P
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  3. #33
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    but what does your gut tell you? if you had to write yourself out of this situation, would you choose option A) Steve was always Hydra and the Allies used the cosmic cube to change things--yet the only one who remembers is a villain or B) said villain altered Steve's memories to further her own plans?
    I am pretty jaded so I think this is ultimately mind control/brainwashing no matter how Marvel/Spencer want to spin it, I'm just saying they are really pushing this alternate reality thing and I don't think it is unreasonable for much of the discussion to focus around that possibility. However, Marvel events have not failed to surprise me with going with the controversial ending over the one that is sitting there on a silver platter.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    According to this new story (which is just a shock and awe story by Marvel) he was always a spy:

    http://screenrant.com/captain-americ...vil-explained/

    Basically, Marvel just rewrote history on one of their most brilliant, inspiring and charismatic characters of all time. This is no longer the Marvel 616 Universe. This is something else altogether.

    Because if Steve was always a spy, then a lot of things don't make sense and could never have happened. Just one, ONE, example is him lifting Thor's hammer, Mjolnir. He would not have been worthy.
    Link doesn't work. However, if that link said that he was always a Hydra agent and that it was definitively established in this issue, then it is wrong. Anyone that says that badly misunderstands Cosmic Cubes (which is odd because their function rewrite reality is explained in the story) or is incapable of critical reading.
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  5. #35
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Link doesn't work. However, if that link said that he was always a Hydra agent and that it was definitively established in this issue, then it is wrong. Anyone that says that badly misunderstands Cosmic Cubes (which is odd because their function rewrite reality is explained in the story) or is incapable of critical reading.
    Or wants to make controversial statements for effect. Or wants to beat up on Marvel for doing something comics have always done. That is a screenrant link. That's click bait. Probably not worth worrying about.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I am pretty jaded so I think this is ultimately mind control/brainwashing no matter how Marvel/Spencer want to spin it, I'm just saying they are really pushing this alternate reality thing and I don't think it is unreasonable for much of the discussion to focus around that possibility. However, Marvel events have not failed to surprise me with going with the controversial ending over the one that is sitting there on a silver platter.
    it really can't be. the flashbacks explicitly show us Steve making choices throughout. he's extremely conscious and patient enough to weigh the consequences of his actions. he couldn't bring himself to kill Erskine. he hesitated to finish the job on Jack Flag. he had to decide between protecting Bucky or possibly ending his friendship with Helmut Zemo. he's currently choosing what to do with Sharon Carter. he nearly gave up on Hydra before his mother was reintroduced. if you want an example of mind control, look at any Purple Man story. controller issues a command. controlled obeys the command. Steve's not obeying anyone. he's the leader. through memory manipulation (speculatively) he was molded into this leader. the only mind control we've seen was Doctor Faustus giving Steve an instant army.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
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  7. #37
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    it really can't be. the flashbacks explicitly show us Steve making choices throughout. he's extremely conscious and patient enough to weigh the consequences of his actions. he couldn't bring himself to kill Erskine. he hesitated to finish the job on Jack Flag. he had to decide between protecting Bucky or possibly ending his friendship with Helmut Zemo. he's currently choosing what to do with Sharon Carter. he nearly gave up on Hydra before his mother was reintroduced. if you want an example of mind control, look at any Purple Man story. controller issues a command. controlled obeys the command. Steve's not obeying anyone. he's the leader. through memory manipulation (speculatively) he was molded into this leader. the only mind control we've seen was Doctor Faustus giving Steve an instant army.
    Everybody in Hydra who knows Steve must know Steve Rogers is wishy washy, for a better term, ELISA Sinclair in particular. So nobody in that Hydra clique is seriously thinking Steve Rogers controls all this. I think Sinclair thinks she is pulling the strings behind the scenes and Steve is just a figure head. Zemo certainly knows Steve is too weak, and Zemo can replace Steve in a flash. Sin and Crossbones may or may not know this yet.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Everybody in Hydra who knows Steve must know Steve Rogers is wishy washy, for a better term, ELISA Sinclair in particular. So nobody in that Hydra clique is seriously thinking Steve Rogers controls all this. I think Sinclair thinks she is pulling the strings behind the scenes and Steve is just a figure head. Zemo certainly knows Steve is too weak, and Zemo can replace Steve in a flash. Sin and Crossbones may or may not know this yet.
    I don't yet know Elisa's motives. if she used to be Kobik (and there's a chance that she is; given Selvig's actions), this might all be the product of her being (partially) raised by the Red Skull. she might actually think that she's making the world a better place. Kobik was fond of Steve Rogers; despite them only having a brief encounter (when he was an old man - go figure). now the situation(speculatively), is reversed. she took part in raising Steve. and she had come to hate the Red Skull; as any child of the Red Skull would.

    and Helmut's eyes are bigger than his stomach. not to take anything away from the man but lacks a lot of what Steve has. he's kind of in the position Norman was when he figured out how to control the Void/Sentry. both characters want power but, ultimately, do not know what to do with it. Rogers has an actual goal/a dream for the world (even if it was given to him by Kraken and Madame Hydra).
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
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  9. #39
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I don't yet know Elisa's motives. if she used to be Kobik (and there's a chance that she is; given Selvig's actions), this might all be the product of her being (partially) raised by the Red Skull. she might actually think that she's making the world a better place. Kobik was fond of Steve Rogers; despite them only having a brief encounter (when he was an old man - go figure). now the situation(speculatively), is reversed. she took part in raising Steve. and she had come to hate the Red Skull; as any child of the Red Skull would.

    and Helmut's eyes are bigger than his stomach. not to take anything away from the man but lacks a lot of what Steve has. he's kind of in the position Norman was when he figured out how to control the Void/Sentry. both characters want power but, ultimately, do not know what to do with it. Rogers has an actual goal/a dream for the world (even if it was given to him by Kraken and Madame Hydra).
    When Steve was tutored, he didn't crystalise a dream for a Hydra world. He wasn't imaginative enough at that time. Zemo had to get him out of all his jams because Steve was too wishy washy. He must have formulated his Hydra World vision during his intervening years played out as a super hero and Avenger after the change in history and his school days. I think this Hydra vision is far too strong now for Elisa Sinclair to alter his course, and of course, if she tries, Steve will eradicate her. That's how aggressive Steve has become now, and is the reason why he turned on the Red Skull so quickly. Anybody who doesn't share Steves vision is going to be killed - Bucky, Red Skull, Jack Flagg, supposedly Maria Hill is in his sights, Phil Coulson will be next because he knows, same with Rick Jones now.

    People may think Steve Rogers is wishy washy and can be depended upon to pull the party line, but Steve is now his own man in this Hydra campaign, so woe betide anybody who tries to redirect the vision that Steve has. He'll blow it all sky high rather than give up his dream.

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I don't yet know Elisa's motives. if she used to be Kobik (and there's a chance that she is; given Selvig's actions), this might all be the product of her being (partially) raised by the Red Skull. she might actually think that she's making the world a better place. Kobik was fond of Steve Rogers; despite them only having a brief encounter (when he was an old man - go figure). now the situation(speculatively), is reversed. she took part in raising Steve. and she had come to hate the Red Skull; as any child of the Red Skull would.

    and Helmut's eyes are bigger than his stomach. not to take anything away from the man but lacks a lot of what Steve has. he's kind of in the position Norman was when he figured out how to control the Void/Sentry. both characters want power but, ultimately, do not know what to do with it. Rogers has an actual goal/a dream for the world (even if it was given to him by Kraken and Madame Hydra).
    There is a possibility that Elisa is just the first direct manifestation of Steve's perception and will weakening the divide between his fully realised reality and the MU. I wonder if the eventual stakes will be about the nature of reality itself. With people actually starting to believe their was a conspiracy at the end of the war, and those perceptions beginning to shape the world.

    Taking the cosmic cube off of the table and then having Kobik seperated from the fragments that were recovered is an interesting twist. Clearly she could represent a solution at some point.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    There is a possibility that Elisa is just the first direct manifestation of Steve's perception and will weakening the divide between his fully realised reality and the MU. I wonder if the eventual stakes will be about the nature of reality itself. With people actually starting to believe their was a conspiracy at the end of the war, and those perceptions beginning to shape the world.

    Taking the cosmic cube off of the table and then having Kobik seperated from the fragments that were recovered is an interesting twist. Clearly she could represent a solution at some point.
    There is some evidence that Selvig, having control of the fragments, sent them to someplace, to protect Kobik, then Selvig killed himself.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Yes, these memories of the Allies "altering" history are just part of Steve's changed memories. There is not a physically altered universe.
    Why are you so sure of that ?, because im pretty sure that the narrator is Sharon, not Steve.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    The prologue doesn't have a narrator. Nor would Sharon have any knowledge of what occurred in that scene anyway.
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  14. #44
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    The prologue doesn't have a narrator. Nor would Sharon have any knowledge of what occurred in that scene anyway.
    I've seen this type of Narrator before, that is put at the start of the Narrative and is unidentified right through the story till it is revealed at the end that the Narrator knew the outcome of the whole story. I think one was a Slott Avengers story and the Narrator was Ultrons bride, Jocasta.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    The prologue doesn't have a narrator. Nor would Sharon have any knowledge of what occurred in that scene anyway.
    It most certainly does have a narrator. The white caption boxes without quotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I've seen this type of Narrator before, that is put at the start of the Narrative and is unidentified right through the story till it is revealed at the end that the Narrator knew the outcome of the whole story. I think one was a Slott Avengers story and the Narrator was Ultrons bride, Jocasta.
    All we know for certain is the narrative is from later on, and isn't Steve, but is a character in the MU. It could be a personal account or as part of a speech.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-23-2017 at 05:41 AM.

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