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  1. #31
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    One thing I just released and I find is brilliant is vast majority of the new heroes (made within 2012-2017 period) DON'T live in New York. For Marvel's long history EVERY character it seemed came and operated in New York. But recently it seems that the new young heroes made in this decade most live and operate outside of New York such as Ms Marvel and the new Wasp live in New Jersey, Nova in mid america, Viv in Virginia, and so forth. Even if they do live in New York many of the new heroes have made links to teams or heroes outside of New York giving a good reason why they would not be in New York during this issues.

    Now it seems the experienced and prominent heroes that the young would look up to, be lead by, or help save them in dire times are now the ones who will have to rely on the new generation of heroes to save them. Majority of the new young heroes are now the last and only line of attack and defense against HYDRA/CAP as the notable distinguished and powerhouse heroes are out of play or need saving and some are most likely dead now.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think it had to be New York. If the idea is to draw in and shut down the hero community, that's the place to do it. Doing it in Chicago or whatever won't net Steve the same number of fish in his net.
    I know but I've always been tired of NY being the be all and end all of Earth-based Marvel.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  3. #33
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    This first issue was a very pleasant surprise. It definitely feels like a big, sweeping epic. Something Civil War 2 lacked. However, many recent Marvel event books have started out great, only to then fizzle out towards the end. Having said that, if Spencer can manage to stick the landing on this one, we may have one of the best Marvel events in a long time on our hands. I'll reserve judgement until the whole thing raps. Going by this issue alone, though? It was a fantastic read from start to finish.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    One question that I had here was about the involvement of Iron Man. We see Tony in his classic armor working alongside Riri Williams and I'm assuming that this is just Tony's A.I. inhabiting an armor but I'd like some confirmation on this. Either in story eventually or in an interview with Spencer or Brevoort. It's cool to have him in the issue - I'd just like to know for certain what "Tony" we're dealing with here.
    I was wondering that as well. Upon reading it i came to the conclusion this was Tony's A.I inhabiting his classic armor (ala Superior Iron-man). But in a later panel a pair of eyes can be seen in the helmet. Might just be an artistic mistake. Yeah, that one bugged the heck out of me.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    One thing I think was missing in SE #0 was how this crisis started. WE are just flung into a situation where 3 events are going on at the same time, but I would have liked to have it start as an ordinary day at SHIELD, and Steve Rogers give the signal to the Chitauri wave, then the Masters of Evil, then the Sokovian Hydra, all to start their actions at precisely the same time. Instead, we miss out on that little triviality it seems.

    I echo others who have trouble understanding the prologue few pages by Rob Reis. It all happened too fast with little explanation about why SPEAR HQ is in Japan, why it seems there are SHIELD Rome personel in the HQ, and why Nostradamus is in Japan and not Italy in 1945? Then, we are apprised with Kraken being a person Steve Rogers knows, but we don't appear to have been informed as far as I remember. But somehow, Hydra has been made aware the Allied camp have a Cosmic Cube, and are right now about to use it, so get ready Steve? This tells us that Reality has in fact been changed, as Nostradamus says in his prediction, and it has stayed changed until the very moment Steve becomes Director of SHIELD, the opposition of SPEAR, supposedly. This is new news to us. We thought Kobik only changed Steves memories, but now it seems, a lot has been changed besides Steves memories. It seems history is now that Hydra were about to win WWII, and sabotaged by a Cosmic Cube, so that the Western World were living a lie, having manufactured their world so they won. So Steve Rogers had been biding his time as a Secret Agent for Hydra the whole of history since 1945 when the Cosmic Cube changed history and only Steve knew, because he was put into the pool.

    The loose ends to this are still making this vague. The vague prehistory to Hydra Cap with Elisa Sinclair and Steves mum and dad in 1922 onwards set up just Steves softness as a Hydra agent. Steves real challenge is to have matured enough in the interim from 1945 to 2017, that Steve is more than capable enough to pull this whole Secret Empire thing off. We now have to imagine that all of ANAD has just been under the influence of the Cosmic Cube, and that Maria Hill changed the Cosmic Cube into Kobik just recently, the result of which led to Steves ascension to DoS. The catalyst to this all happening is Maria Hills interference in the vital Cosmic Cube that started all this. You would think the authorities would have made it vitally important not to mess with the Cosmic Cube, (so that the Change the Allies did to reality in 1945), to make them win wouldn't be reversed. There had to be somebody from back in the day in 1945, who was the gatekeeper of the Cosmic Cube, would notice a reversal was about to happen, and it return reality to Hydra winning WWII.
    Last edited by jackolover; 04-20-2017 at 01:07 AM.

  6. #36
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    This was great.

    Hydra Cap's prep is insane.

    I'm still trying to understand how the Cosmic Cube was used though. It does seem that it's only Steve's memories that have been changed or something.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member SpiderClops's Avatar
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    If anyone hasn't been keeping up with all the lead up to this event(like me), this might help you:

    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
    -Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    One thing I think was missing in SE #0 was how this crisis started. WE are just flung into a situation where 3 events are going on at the same time, but I would have liked to have it start as an ordinary day at SHIELD, and Steve Rogers give the signal to the Chitauri wave, then the Masters of Evil, then the Sokovian Hydra, all to start their actions at precisely the same time. Instead, we miss out on that little triviality it seems.

    I echo others who have trouble understanding the prologue few pages by Rob Reis. It all happened too fast with little explanation about why SPEAR HQ is in Japan, why it seems there are SHIELD Rome personel in the HQ, and why Nostradamus is in Japan and not Italy in 1945? Then, we are apprised with Kraken being a person Steve Rogers knows, but we don't appear to have been informed as far as I remember. But somehow, Hydra has been made aware the Allied camp have a Cosmic Cube, and are right now about to use it, so get ready Steve? This tells us that Reality has in fact been changed, as Nostradamus says in his prediction, and it has stayed changed until the very moment Steve becomes Director of SHIELD, the opposition of SPEAR, supposedly. This is new news to us. We thought Kobik only changed Steves memories, but now it seems, a lot has been changed besides Steves memories. It seems history is now that Hydra were about to win WWII, and sabotaged by a Cosmic Cube, so that the Western World were living a lie, having manufactured their world so they won. So Steve Rogers had been biding his time as a Secret Agent for Hydra the whole of history since 1945 when the Cosmic Cube changed history and only Steve knew, because he was put into the pool.

    The loose ends to this are still making this vague. The vague prehistory to Hydra Cap with Elisa Sinclair and Steves mum and dad in 1922 onwards set up just Steves softness as a Hydra agent. Steves real challenge is to have matured enough in the interim from 1945 to 2017, that Steve is more than capable enough to pull this whole Secret Empire thing off. We now have to imagine that all of ANAD has just been under the influence of the Cosmic Cube, and that Maria Hill changed the Cosmic Cube into Kobik just recently, the result of which led to Steves ascension to DoS. The catalyst to this all happening is Maria Hills interference in the vital Cosmic Cube that started all this. You would think the authorities would have made it vitally important not to mess with the Cosmic Cube, (so that the Change the Allies did to reality in 1945), to make them win wouldn't be reversed. There had to be somebody from back in the day in 1945, who was the gatekeeper of the Cosmic Cube, would notice a reversal was about to happen, and it return reality to Hydra winning WWII.

    I'd say to most of your criticisms here is.... why does it matter? who cares who was where when, if that has no impact on the plot? If it was important, sure, but the stuff you list, the details are largely unimportant beyond 'this was in the past, this is in the present' so glossing over locations and specific dates is not really an issue for me. The Japan thing may be relevant, but, i mean, it had a big caption 'Japan - 1945' and then an in dialogue explanation. So I mean, it's covered as much as it needs to be covered for now. If it is important later they'll fill in the details we need to know then. The story shouldn't be grinding to a halt to explain minutia that will be completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of the story, it would take AGES to get told if they did that, and I think you are overthinking a lot of largely irrelevant minutia.

    And no, Cap wasn't hiding his ties since 1945. I mean, he was still an icecube for most of that time. But hiding during the war, and then since being unfrozen by the Avengers, roughly 15 years give or take, yeah. But we've known that for a while now. We just didn't understand until this issue how some events that would at first glance appear contradictory with that actually went down.

    And I don't think the Allies actually did change reality with a cosmic cube. I think that is what Cap and a few others who also had their realities altered or were created from scratch by Kobik (Elisa, probably) BELIEVE in order to make sense of events which would otherwise not make sense. We've already seen the origin of Kobik in Captain America, and it directly contradicts the whole 'allies changed reality' thing. but it doesn't contradict Kobik rewriting Cap's personal reality, with a handwave revision about the end of the war thrown in to smooth over some of the more contradictory parts, which conveniently only he can remember.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-20-2017 at 02:03 AM.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I'd say to most of your criticisms here is.... why does it matter? who cares who was where when, if that has no impact on the plot? If it was important, sure, but the stuff you list, the details are largely unimportant beyond 'this was in the past, this is in the present' so glossing over locations and specific dates is not really an issue for me. The Japan thing may be relevant, but, i mean, it had a big caption 'Japan - 1945' and then an in dialogue explanation. So I mean, it's covered as much as it needs to be covered for now. If it is important later they'll fill in the details we need to know then. The story shouldn't be grinding to a halt to explain minutia that will be completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of the story, it would take AGES to get told if they did that, and I think you are overthinking a lot of largely irrelevant minutia.

    And no, Cap wasn't hiding his ties since 1945. I mean, he was still an icecube for most of that time. But hiding during the war, and then since being unfrozen by the Avengers, roughly 15 years give or take, yeah. But we've known that for a while now. We just didn't understand until this issue how some events that would at first glance appear contradictory with that actually went down.
    Yeah Raye. My comments weren't criticisms as much as unanswered questions. But I agree with others that it was a good start to the event, and Steve Rogers coldness during his conversations with Carol and Sharon in particular, being very telling towards Steves frame of mind, and nicely done by Nick Spencer. The gradual realisation from Sharon Carter that her beloved Steve Rogers had complicity in this attack, and not just that, but the Supreme Commander , has a strong stunning effect on the narrative. I guess I am a bit niggly when it comes to how I would like an Event to emerge. I still think surprises like Nostadamus and the SHIELD head-dress were out of left field, but like you say, maybe they will be brought up later in the Event.
    Last edited by jackolover; 04-20-2017 at 01:55 AM.

  10. #40
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    I wonder if Steve's adopted son Ian zola/rogers nomad will finally make a comeback since his last appearance in the hail hydra secret wars series along with sara rogers\venom the daughter of alternate reality Steve and Sharon?

  11. #41
    Fantastic Member Haquim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    One thing I think was missing in SE #0 was how this crisis started. WE are just flung into a situation where 3 events are going on at the same time, but I would have liked to have it start as an ordinary day at SHIELD, and Steve Rogers give the signal to the Chitauri wave, then the Masters of Evil, then the Sokovian Hydra, all to start their actions at precisely the same time. Instead, we miss out on that little triviality it seems.

    I echo others who have trouble understanding the prologue few pages by Rob Reis. It all happened too fast with little explanation about why SPEAR HQ is in Japan, why it seems there are SHIELD Rome personel in the HQ, and why Nostradamus is in Japan and not Italy in 1945? Then, we are apprised with Kraken being a person Steve Rogers knows, but we don't appear to have been informed as far as I remember. But somehow, Hydra has been made aware the Allied camp have a Cosmic Cube, and are right now about to use it, so get ready Steve? This tells us that Reality has in fact been changed, as Nostradamus says in his prediction, and it has stayed changed until the very moment Steve becomes Director of SHIELD, the opposition of SPEAR, supposedly. This is new news to us. We thought Kobik only changed Steves memories, but now it seems, a lot has been changed besides Steves memories. It seems history is now that Hydra were about to win WWII, and sabotaged by a Cosmic Cube, so that the Western World were living a lie, having manufactured their world so they won. So Steve Rogers had been biding his time as a Secret Agent for Hydra the whole of history since 1945 when the Cosmic Cube changed history and only Steve knew, because he was put into the pool.

    The loose ends to this are still making this vague. The vague prehistory to Hydra Cap with Elisa Sinclair and Steves mum and dad in 1922 onwards set up just Steves softness as a Hydra agent. Steves real challenge is to have matured enough in the interim from 1945 to 2017, that Steve is more than capable enough to pull this whole Secret Empire thing off. We now have to imagine that all of ANAD has just been under the influence of the Cosmic Cube, and that Maria Hill changed the Cosmic Cube into Kobik just recently, the result of which led to Steves ascension to DoS. The catalyst to this all happening is Maria Hills interference in the vital Cosmic Cube that started all this. You would think the authorities would have made it vitally important not to mess with the Cosmic Cube, (so that the Change the Allies did to reality in 1945), to make them win wouldn't be reversed. There had to be somebody from back in the day in 1945, who was the gatekeeper of the Cosmic Cube, would notice a reversal was about to happen, and it return reality to Hydra winning WWII.
    -Steve does NOT control the Chitauri waves. They come to heart to retrieve their queen, it's likely Steve started things when the chitauri showed up since he controls the masters of evil and hydra.
    -There's no Shield Rome personel with the Kraken. There's Newton and Nostradamus. Newton was at war with Leonardo Da Vinci in Shield v.2 and apparently left Shield to join the sister organization (the Spear in the East). Nostradamus was and is a prisoner in this (as evidenced by the chains around his neck) he was kidnapped for his ability to read the future during the Shield miniseries. Btw I loved the references BUT.... I need Hickman to finish Shield v.2 more than ever now.
    -To me it was clear from the very start Kobik had changed more than just Steve's memories, she altered reality rectroactively in order to make things work. She did this prompted by the Red Skull but she did it in a way that could make sense, and working with Steve Rogers she put him against the Red Skull anyway.
    -It's clear that even in this altered reality Hydra/Spear (it's said Newton turned the Spear into Hydra) was subverted by the Red Skull and turned into service to the nazis and that Cap fought against that so even in this reality he's never been a nazi.

    Great issue, great pacing, great storytelling. I absolutely love how continuity has been used here to BUILD a new story and make things progress. The seeds for this story come from Hickman's Secret Warriors and Shield (v1 & v2) and they are sewn seamlessly into the narrative. That's how you play in a shared univrse, that's how you improve it. You take into account what happened on page and then move forward. Unlike a certain someone does ignoring whatever doesn't fit his own "vision" and then explaining nothing if not in the most simple and moronic of terms.

    Edit: small nitpick: the masters of evil have some members who are way more powerful than most of the heroes sent against them. The likes of Graviton and Nefaria should be able to deal with most of the opposition (mainly street level) with a wave of their hand.
    Last edited by Haquim; 04-20-2017 at 02:27 AM.

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haquim View Post
    -Steve does NOT control the Chitauri waves. They come to heart to retrieve their queen, it's likely Steve started things when the chitauri showed up since he controls the masters of evil and hydra.
    -There's no Shield Rome personel with the Kraken. There's Newton and Nostradamus. Newton was at war with Leonardo Da Vinci in Shield v.2 and apparently left Shield to join the sister organization (the Spear in the East). Nostradamus was and is a prisoner in this (as evidenced by the chains around his neck) he was kidnapped for his ability to read the future during the Shield miniseries. Btw I loved the references BUT.... I need Hickman to finish Shield v.2 more than ever now.
    -To me it was clear from the very start Kobik had changed more than just Steve's memories, she altered reality rectroactively in order to make things work. She did this prompted by the Red Skull but she did it in a way that could make sense, and working with Steve Rogers she put him against the Red Skull anyway.
    -It's clear that even in this altered reality Hydra/Spear (it's said Newton turned the Spear into Hydra) was subverted by the Red Skull and turned into service to the nazis and that Cap fought against that so even in this reality he's never been a nazi.

    Great issue, great pacing, great storytelling. I absolutely love how continuity has been used here to BUILD a new story and make things progress. The seeds for this story come from Hickman's Secret Warriors and Shield (v1 & v2) and they are sewn seamlessly into the narrative. That's how you play in a shared univrse, that's how you improve it. You take into account what happened on page and then move forward. Unlike a certain someone does ignoring whatever doesn't fit his own "vision" and then explaining nothing if not in the most simple and moronic of terms.

    Edit: small nitpick: the masters of evil have some members who are way more powerful than most of the heroes sent against them. The likes of Graviton and Nefaria should be able to deal with most of the opposition (mainly street level) with a wave of their hand.
    Thanks for the responses Haquim. I forgot that Newton, as you point out, could have been altered by Kobik to be in Japan with SPEAR, so that makes more sense now. So certainly in Secret Empire, the relevance of finishing Hickmans SHIELD becomes less important if reality has been changed like you suggest. That story Hickman was telling is going to be different to what we get after Kobik changed how all that went down.

    I'm not sure if Steve controls the Chitauri or not, but he certainly told them there is a Queen on Earth and to come and get it. Thats manipulation at least.

  13. #43
    Fantastic Member Geek Mangacomic's Avatar
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    I'm almost 100% now that Cap is gonna be the new prep-wanked god of who would win debates.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    This was great.

    Hydra Cap's prep is insane.

    I'm still trying to understand how the Cosmic Cube was used though. It does seem that it's only Steve's memories that have been changed or something.
    The Cosmic Cube was used by the Red Skull to forge new memories into Steve to have him work for him as Hydra agent. However Kobik had a mind of her own, she saw the good sides of Hydra and the evil within Red Skull and forged her own ideas of Hydra into Steve so that he would rebel against him and take charge of Hydra himself. She altered history, enough to make Steve's mission come to fruition, this is evident with Madam Hydra coming back to life with knowledge of Steve and apparently Baron Zemo's memories. However she was not able to fully alter history, whether it was because she isn't strong enough or she thought she had altered enough to get her own vision into motion, as Bucky's history wasn't altered, and he was able to remember the pre-rewrite history.

    Secret Empire is not Steve's vision, it is Kobik's vision, Steve is the driving force to make it happen.
    Last edited by Punjabi_Hitman; 04-20-2017 at 05:06 AM.

  15. #45

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    Secret Empire is already shaping up to be one of those events that a significant number of people are determined to hate, no matter what. There's nothing Spencer can ever do to make them actually enjoy the story. Events like that are frustrating. I would know. I saw the same sentiment with IvX recently. I think too many people have already tied this story and Hydra Cap to all these political overtones that just bring out the worst in people.

    All that said, this was a good issue. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was richly detailed, setting up a well-crafted scenario that shows how Hydra Cap takes over and reveals his true colors. It wasn't rushed. It wasn't forced. It felt like Spencer was really attentive to detail here, which doesn't always occur in a major crossover event with so many moving parts. Given the long build-up to this story, that's quite an accomplishment and I think it bodes well for the event as a whole.
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