Page 7 of 22 FirstFirst ... 3456789101117 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 329
  1. #91
    Epic Member XPac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    14,902

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Namor'sWrath View Post
    I don't know how much I believe that Steve is a victim. He's not brainwashed. He's making choices. He's still lived all these experiences with the Avengers. He still knows Hydra does terrible things. He just doesn't care.

    This is genuinely who Steve would have been had Hydra got to him when he was young. Kobik just made it happen.
    Yeah, but the point being he's a hydra agent because Kobik made it happen. Obviously he wouldn't be doing any of this if that didn't happen.

    I think you can fairly put reality alteration under the same category as brainwashing or mind control at least in regards to getting a pass.

  2. #92
    Veteran Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,266

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, but the point being he's a hydra agent because Kobik made it happen. Obviously he wouldn't be doing any of this if that didn't happen.

    I think you can fairly put reality alteration under the same category as brainwashing or mind control at least in regards to getting a pass.
    Like, it'd be one thing if Steve was possessed by the Phoenix and can the most important person. If that happened, I'd say rake him over the coals, but this is different.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  3. #93
    Veteran Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, but the point being he's a hydra agent because Kobik made it happen. Obviously he wouldn't be doing any of this if that didn't happen.

    I think you can fairly put reality alteration under the same category as brainwashing or mind control at least in regards to getting a pass.
    I think the point the commenter is making is that Steve still killed people innocent or not and even so if Steve was being brainwashed in a way by having kobik rewrite his history he still took lives.

    Although in my opinion many superheroes have taken lives and they never face legal conesqunces mostly because it just makes things even more complicated if you have the character/superhero in question who kills someone or any number of people by putting them on trial and possibly even having them spend time in prison, and writers don't want to have to worry about those consequences by having these characters go through that thus most superheroes that have killed someone don't face legal conesqunces.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 04-20-2017 at 09:27 PM.

  4. #94
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    4,783

    Default

    Unless there is a hand wave fix at the end of this, i don't see how Steve could conceivably continue to be Captain America after this. Even if he's a victim. Though unless he dies there will probably be some sort of redemption journey.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-20-2017 at 09:18 PM.

  5. #95
    Epic Member XPac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    14,902

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    I think the point the commenter is making is that Steve still killed people innocent or not and even so if Steve was being brainwashed in a way by having Mobil rewrite his history he still took lives.

    Although in my opinion many superheroes have taken lives and they never face legal conesqunces mostly because it just makes things even more complicated if you have the character/superhero in question who kills someone or any number of people by putting them on trial and possibly even having them spend time in prison, and writers don't want to have to worry about those consequences by having these characters go through that thus most superheroes that have killed someone don't face legal conesqunces.
    I think this is an instance where Steve justifiably won't face legal consequences... or at least not long term ones. I'm sure Steve will be more than willing to surrender himself to the authorities when he's back to his own self, but he'll get off and he should because again it's not his fault.

    Yes people died and that's unfortunate. But again, it's really not his fault. He's a victim here too.

  6. #96
    Veteran Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think this is an instance where Steve justifiably won't face legal consequences... or at least not long term ones. I'm sure Steve will be more than willing to surrender himself to the authorities when he's back to his own self, but he'll get off and he should because again it's not his fault.

    Yes people died and that's unfortunate. But again, it's really not his fault. He's a victim here too.
    I think what I'd like to see is if the heroes remember what Steve did after secret empire ends that they begin to doubt him and question him and not trust him because of all the terrible things he did in betraying and lying to them and getting people killed.

    I would really like to see free spirit want justice for jack flags death if she finds out Steve killed jack even if they all find out that he only did these things because kobik forcibly changed Steve's history against his will.

  7. #97
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    15,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Namor'sWrath View Post
    I don't know how much I believe that Steve is a victim. He's not brainwashed. He's making choices. He's still lived all these experiences with the Avengers. He still knows Hydra does terrible things. He just doesn't care.

    This is genuinely who Steve would have been had Hydra got to him when he was young. Kobik just made it happen.
    His reality was warped thanks to the efforts of the Red Skull without him knowing. I'd say that makes him a victim just plenty.

  8. #98
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think this is an instance where Steve justifiably won't face legal consequences... or at least not long term ones. I'm sure Steve will be more than willing to surrender himself to the authorities when he's back to his own self, but he'll get off and he should because again it's not his fault.

    Yes people died and that's unfortunate. But again, it's really not his fault. He's a victim here too.
    The question though is if Steve will be able to live with what it is that he did. Brainwashed or no, Steve will know that he has blood on his hands, including that of Bruce Banner for setting him up. He'll also have to live with the fact that he had stood against everything that he's ever fought for and almost crushed it with his own bare hands. That he had essentially become no better than everyone he's ever fought, looking his friends in the face while thinking of them as nothing but chess pieces, feeling nothing for them even after all the years that he fought by their side. I'm not sure he'll see himself as fit for the mantle of Captain America after this.

    And all that's not even getting into what the public's perception of him will be given how trusted he was.

  9. #99
    Veteran Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    The question though is if Steve will be able to live with what it is that he did. Brainwashed or no, Steve will know that he has blood on his hands, including that of Bruce Banner for setting him up. He'll also have to live with the fact that he had stood against everything that he's ever fought for and almost crushed it with his own bare hands. That he had essentially become no better than everyone he's ever fought, looking his friends in the face while thinking of them as nothing but chess pieces, feeling nothing for them even after all the years that he fought by their side. I'm not sure he'll see himself as fit for the mantle of Captain America after this.

    And all that's not even getting into what the public's perception of him will be given how trusted he was.
    He also is responsible for jack flag's death for throwing him out the plane back in issue one of Steve Rogers, and I wonder how much free spirit will want revenge for what Steve did especially with how heartbroken and sad and crying she was over jack dying back in issue ten.

    Also he is indirectly responsible for Bucky being killed even if zemo is the one who actually personally killed Bucky.

    Also he's also indirectly responsible for avril kincaid being killed by the chitari queen.

    And as evil as red skull was Steve still killed him and that's no doubt going to look bad knowing Steve resorted to taking a life regardless of how evil red skull is and how much he is responsible for all of this mess that Steve is in now.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 04-20-2017 at 11:52 PM.

  10. #100
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, but the point being he's a hydra agent because Kobik made it happen. Obviously he wouldn't be doing any of this if that didn't happen.

    I think you can fairly put reality alteration under the same category as brainwashing or mind control at least in regards to getting a pass.
    were the choices offered or were the choices made for him?

    i think he took a path opened to him.

  11. #101

    Default

    I think some are missing that it really doesn't matter if he has "free will" in his actions or not. This has everything to do with taking Marvel's most idealistic character and dragging him through the muck and grim of postmodernism for a buck.

    If someone wrote a story where we find out that Frank Castle was a serial killer, but had his memories altered, there would be an outcry, but it wouldn't be nearly as damaging given the fact that the very nature of the Punisher is such that he's a deeply disturbed, tainted human being.

  12. #102
    Veteran Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingsLeadHat View Post
    I think some are missing that it really doesn't matter if he has "free will" in his actions or not. This has everything to do with taking Marvel's most idealistic character and dragging him through the muck and grim of postmodernism for a buck.

    If someone wrote a story where we find out that Frank Castle was a serial killer, but had his memories altered, there would be an outcry, but it wouldn't be nearly as damaging given the fact that the very nature of the Punisher is such that he's a deeply disturbed, tainted human being.
    It's complicated honestly it really is since the reason why Steve is doing all these terrible fucked up things from killing people whether they're innocent or not to him betraying and deceiving his friends to his loyalty to hydra is all because kobik with the manipulation a of red skull had Steve's history and memories changed and altered against his will do its sad in a way but there's also the fact that Steve still did these things from murder to betrayal to lies and deceit and the manipulation after manipulation that he had over his friends and colleagues that trusted him and his loyalty to hydra....so it's really complicated in saying whose to blame for all this.

    Because I think blaming spencer and everyone at marvel it just feels so wrong on so many levels there's some people on Twitter actually who are hoping secret empire will flop whether its sales wise or how professional critics and readers feel about the story, and there's some people who are saying they hope that spencer and everyone at marvel whose involved in working on this story and approving the story that their careers and future in comics will be ruined and damaged destroyed even it's sad to see that kind of response from readers and supposed fans.

  13. #103
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    indeed. I only know because, once the story started to get interesting, I tracked down all of the previous issues and reread Secret Warriors. I still totally didn't see the Isaac Newton stuff coming. it's also important to keep in mind that the most recent Kraken introduced may or may not be Whitehall. my personal fan theory is that it's Leopold/Ian (Steve's adopted son from Dimension Z & the Hail Hydra mini).


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    in reference to Steve's mother and partially wearing the Kraken armor... (forgive the size - I don't have a scanner)



    Thanks Michael Watkins. I still wouldn't have put Whitehall and Kraken together.
    Last edited by jackolover; 04-21-2017 at 02:01 AM.

  14. #104
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindcrime0069 View Post
    Man ive been gone a long time, but i just gotta say. i honestly think like Sam, Tony will have a big part in bringing Steve down. Forgive me if im missing parts of the story and please correct me if im wrong, but did Steve have any part of Tony being in a coma? Makes sense he would want Tony out of the picture when he makes the big reveal. And where is Thor Odinson? This would effect him big time.
    Well... everyone remembers Steve Rogers went to DC to specifically cause a confrontation between Tony and Carol which Steve knew was going to escalate into lethal force by both of them. So I have to say, yes, Steve caused Tony's coma.

  15. #105
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    I think what I'd like to see is if the heroes remember what Steve did after secret empire ends that they begin to doubt him and question him and not trust him because of all the terrible things he did in betraying and lying to them and getting people killed.

    I would really like to see free spirit want justice for jack flags death if she finds out Steve killed jack even if they all find out that he only did these things because kobik forcibly changed Steve's history against his will.
    Steve did it to the Illuminati so they could get their own back at Steve and point to him saying, "Now you know what it feels like".

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •