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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    His reality was warped thanks to the efforts of the Red Skull without him knowing. I'd say that makes him a victim just plenty.
    Yes, but even in his new reality he wasn't controlled. He was presented with choices and made the bad ones.

  2. #107
    I am BLACK GUY dreyga2000's Avatar
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    I get what your saying, Steve is doing this all of his own free will. However that freewill was forged under different circumstances. Raises alot of questions about nature snd nuture. Are good men only created by circumstance do we all have the hidden capacity for evil within us??

  3. #108
    Fantastic Member KingsLeadHat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    Because I think blaming spencer and everyone at marvel it just feels so wrong on so many levels there's some people on Twitter actually who are hoping secret empire will flop whether its sales wise or how professional critics and readers feel about the story, and there's some people who are saying they hope that spencer and everyone at marvel whose involved in working on this story and approving the story that their careers and future in comics will be ruined and damaged destroyed even it's sad to see that kind of response from readers and supposed fans.
    This is the important aspect to consider. While I've been highly critically of a lot of stuff Marvel has done in the Quesada era till today, anyone who would threaten, or even wish for the ruin of someones career over a creative direction, is a sociopath that should seek help. That said, it seems like these wackjobs make it easy for Marvel to ignore constructive criticism by focusing on the most extreme examples.

  4. #109
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    There are too many threads discussing similar things now! We are finally getting down to the story itself I guess.
    Rather than repeat myself I will just quote myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    <snip>Steve has a much more idealistic mentality, his reality began to be subverted from Red Skull's plan right from the start. I suspect Kobik has actually granted Steve some of her power, and he is shaping the story. Kobik provided an end point. Which has now passed into recent history. In which Steve and Red Skull are working together in a way Red Skull approved of. But Kobik didn't necessarily create Steve's new story. It may have been Red Skull's bedtime story, it may have been a combination of that and Steve's own outlook.

    If Steve had some power over the narrative it would explain the sudden reversal of his mother, and the way he was swayed by a more pure ideological concept when he was considering running away. It's as if Steve began to reject the story but the end point was too fixed so he had to come up with his own version.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsLeadHat View Post
    I think some are missing that it really doesn't matter if he has "free will" in his actions or not. This has everything to do with taking Marvel's most idealistic character and dragging him through the muck and grim of postmodernism for a buck.
    No, not "for a buck." Because they wanted to tell the story that they're telling.

    Yes, they also want it to sell but guess what - they want EVERY story to tell. Anything that Marvel publishes, they're hoping to make a profit from it.

    Secret Empire and the entire Hydra Cap saga is a fascinating exploration of what makes Steve Rogers tick and it asks what would happen if the consummate soldier and strategist as well as the single most trusted man in the world were to become an enemy to the Marvel Universe. That's a story that a lot of people want to read. And it's not about cheap cynicism, it's about being drawn into a great story.

  6. #111
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namor'sWrath View Post
    I don't know how much I believe that Steve is a victim. He's not brainwashed. He's making choices. He's still lived all these experiences with the Avengers. He still knows Hydra does terrible things. He just doesn't care.

    This is genuinely who Steve would have been had Hydra got to him when he was young. Kobik just made it happen.
    Far as I know that question wasn't answered yet. It's very well possible that Steve's personality too was altered alongside his memories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindcrime0069 View Post
    Man ive been gone a long time, but i just gotta say. i honestly think like Sam, Tony will have a big part in bringing Steve down. Forgive me if im missing parts of the story and please correct me if im wrong, but did Steve have any part of Tony being in a coma? Makes sense he would want Tony out of the picture when he makes the big reveal. And where is Thor Odinson? This would effect him big time.
    Pretty much half of what happened in CWII was based on Steve's manipulations. Banners death is as much his fault as Clint's for example. Well i guess Banner himself is partially to blame as well for even telling Barton to do that if he ever Hulks out again.
    If I recall that right he also manipulated Natasha somehow. Hence she'll play a major role as well.

    If I would have to guess I'd say that the characters playing plot heavy roles are:

    - Captain Samerica
    - Tony or his A.I.
    - Zemo
    - Widow
    - Miles Morales
    - Clint maybe
    - Carol
    Last edited by Matternativ; 04-21-2017 at 07:01 AM.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: How Marvel Should Have Concluded: S E C R E T - E M P I R E

  7. #112
    Spectacular Member Angrel-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm sure plenty of people will be mad at Steve, but really it's not his fault. He didn't ask to be manipuled by a cosmic cube. He's a victim too.
    And here comes the first Steve apologist.

    Even without the Kobik plot device, Steve has mad insecure and jealousy issues besides being a control freak. Hydra Cap is actually a non hypocritical version of Steve.

    I'm gonna enjoy this event to the fullest.

    Fuck Steve Rogers!!!

  8. #113
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrel-San View Post
    And here comes the first Steve apologist.

    Even without the Kobik plot device, Steve has mad insecure and jealousy issues besides being a control freak. Hydra Cap is actually a non hypocritical version of Steve.

    I'm gonna enjoy this event to the fullest.

    Fuck Steve Rogers!!!
    Daaaaw, you are adorable.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: How Marvel Should Have Concluded: S E C R E T - E M P I R E

  9. #114
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    If I would have to guess I'd say that the characters playing plot heavy roles are:

    - Captain Samerica
    - Tony or his A.I.
    - Zemo
    - Widow
    - Miles Morales
    - Clint maybe
    - Carol
    I would replace Sam with Sharon, drop Tony, probably push Carol to the periphery (much like Steve has) and possibly bring Steven Strange into the picture if this gets reality warping.

    Also Maria Hill and Rick Jones are clearly key players too.

    P.S. let me be the first (maybe not who knows) to predict Sharon will be Captain America at the end of this.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-21-2017 at 07:26 AM.

  10. #115
    Spectacular Member Angrel-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namor'sWrath View Post
    I don't know how much I believe that Steve is a victim. He's not brainwashed. He's making choices. He's still lived all these experiences with the Avengers. He still knows Hydra does terrible things. He just doesn't care.

    This is genuinely who Steve would have been had Hydra got to him when he was young. Kobik just made it happen.
    Ding, ding, ding!!!

    A winner is you.

  11. #116
    Spectacular Member Angrel-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    Daaaaw, you are adorable.
    Thanks!!!

    I'm flattered.

  12. #117
    Spectacular Member Angrel-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think this is an instance where Steve justifiably won't face legal consequences... or at least not long term ones. I'm sure Steve will be more than willing to surrender himself to the authorities when he's back to his own self, but he'll get off and he should because again it's not his fault.

    Yes people died and that's unfortunate. But again, it's really not his fault. He's a victim here too.
    So, Steve gets a pass for being manipulated but Cyclops doesn't?

    Gotcha!!!

  13. #118
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    I have to say, as much as I've been reading the Hydra Cap saga all along with the thought that Kobik had implanted Steve with false memories, re-reading SE #0, I'm now feeling that it really is a matter of Kobik re-writing reality itself.

    It's still ambiguous enough to debate but the "false memories" notion was based on the fact that no one else remembered things the way that Steve did. It was easier to explain and accept that dichotomy by thinking that Steve alone had been altered. Everyone else remembers reality "as it is" while Steve has false memories. Simple. Anything else seemed hard to reconcile.

    But that was before the opening of SE #0 where we see why Steve would remember things differently. At first I just assumed that this was just how Kobik made it plausible for Steve to believe what he does. But now, re-reading and reflecting on it, I think it's actually to illustrate why it's plausible that no one else remembers things the way Steve does, which is a much bigger deal.

    I think I rejected that notion just because I'd made certain assumptions about what had been going on with Steve and I looked at SE #0 through that perceptive and also because the idea of more than Steve being changed just seemed too enormous. But now I think that really is the case. At least that's how I'm looking at it now and, from that point of view, the story makes even more sense. And it certainly clarifies Spencer and Brevoort's statement about mind control not being involved.

    I do believe there is a clear distinction between implanting false memories and actual mind control overriding free will but if Steve's mind was not tampered with in any way but that reality itself was changed and that Steve was raised under a new set of circumstances, then that's a whole new ballgame.

    Like I said, I was going with the false memories notion because, as Steve's memories of a past that never happened unfolded and the rest of the MU continued to have its shared history intact, that idea just made sense. But now that we can see how Steve can legitimately believe in one history and everyone else can legitimately believe in another, I'm going whole hog with the reality re-written idea.

    Which, I have to say, makes me find this story even crazier and more audacious than I previously thought. Before I thought resolving it would just be a matter of "waking up" Steve but now I realize it's quite a bit more than that. I do think ambiguity remains but I'm definitely looking at this in a different way than I had been.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 04-21-2017 at 09:05 AM.

  14. #119
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    I think a big part of this event will be some of these discussions you guys are having here: What exactly happened to Steve Rogers? Was reality itself altered or have false memories been planted in his mind? What kind of a criminal does that make him? I'm hoping to see that kind of debate.

    That being said, I absolutely love the start of this event in Secret Empire #0. Hydra-Cap is truly an intimidating and frightening villain by not necessarily acting like a stereotypically downright evil bastard, but just being who he is with a different ideal he strives for. That's what I love so much about his solo run and this event. It kind of makes me want to read more of his books (this is the first ad only one I've read), but at the same time not read any of this because I feel I might not get this same ruthless, chess-playing, and scheming, and absolutely badass version (unless I'm wrong and there are such runs out there -- I'd like to read them).

    I'll be honest, I'm not sure who I'm rooting for here: Steve or the real good guys. That's how compelling his character feels to me. Watching his grand plan come to fruition has to be one of the most satisfying moments I've ever read in comics. I whispered a very silent "Yes! Get 'em!" when Cap exiled the cosmic heroes, but it must be so rough for the good guys out there. It's downright painful that Steve told them how hard they had to fight, while being the very reason they have to fight that hard (and probably lose). That is cruel on so many levels. They would have to keep that message in their minds while absolutely hating his guts.

    I also hope to see more moments of Hydra-Cap kicking ass with his own bare hands. I know CA-SR isn't big on action (which to me is a selling point) but I love his new look and shield (I know it's not the classics but still) and I hope he gets to fight someone noteworthy soon.

    Well done, Nick Spencer.

  15. #120
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I have to say, as much as I've been reading the Hydra Cap saga all along with the thought that Kobik had implanted Steve with false memories, re-reading SE #0, I'm now feeling that it really is a matter of Kobik re-writing reality itself.
    Indeed it is the very clever ambiguity that gives the story its strength. This is not a simple memory thing, this is stripping Steve back to before his origin and re-imagining his experience of the war. This is why I am so fascinated by the potential sub-text of the story. This is about a very different upbringing and world view for Steve, who has effectively lived his life differently, and lived anew a period of history that very few of his peers even remember. The setup perfectly allows that version of reality to be just as possible and true as established continuity. And indeed all of the actual comics from that period could be reread with a new light.

    WWII is so integral to the character, and having him experience things differently totally flips him while reflecting in passing the complexity of the politics of that era, especially as reflected in US isolationism and the then US fascist sympathisers.

    This is why I see this as a conflict of realities. We have two equal and opposite stories of WWII that are now competing for prominence, and two key characters working to make that darker past very real.

    It begs the question, How has Elisa turned up in the current reality. She is a tangible and real link to that past that should not exist. At least not yet.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-21-2017 at 10:26 AM.

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