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  1. #1
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Default SE Steve Rogers #16 Opening Salvo Spoilers

    This dovetails into SE #0 which fills in a lot of details I thought went missing.

    Spoilers

    1945 - Elisa brings Steve back to the Castle training facility and reunites Steve with his mother. She wasn't killed as we thought. Then Elisa sends Steve to rescue Zemo and then go to Japan to see Kraken. NOW - Maria Hill finds out Steve is Hydra and calls Rick Jones to tell him but as she does she is captured by Hydra goons. Rick tells Steve what Maria told him and Steve convinces Rick to trust him and to send the codes to shut down the Earth Shield. Rick sends it and Black Ant burst in and arrest Rick. A suicide bomber blows up the Shield base camp and it opens the Shield (but really its Steve who opens it, the bomb damage is superficial). Then Steve transmits a message to all Hydra teams that this is the time to attack.

    End of Spoilers

    Its a good pre-read for SE #0 because it places the charaters in position. Not sure what the benefit of Steves mum is except it gave Steve his confidence back and made him believe, so maybe there is method in Elisas madness.
    Last edited by jackolover; 04-20-2017 at 06:20 PM.

  2. #2
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    Thanks for starting a thread on this.

    Although I have to add that perhaps the biggest moment in this issue is Zemo's scene with Bucky.

    This was absolutely huge.





    ***SPOILERS***




    Carrying over from the events of Thunderbolts (which I haven't read yet), Zemo has Bucky strapped to a familiar flying bomb. Bucky is insisting that Kobik has messed with Steve, that none of this false history is true. Zemo says Bucky doesn't really know Steve at all. He shows him a holographic recording that Steve has made saying goodbye to Bucky. Steve says that Bucky was a good and loyal friend during the war and that he didn't enjoy betraying him but that he knows he'll never be able to get Bucky to switch sides. He also says that no matter what Bucky remembers, that Bucky was responsible for the death of a great man and that Helmut deserves justice.

    An anguished Bucky protests that this isn't Steve. As Zemo prepares to launch the rocket into the air, he says "Poor Bucky. You still don't understand, do you? Fact, reality - these things are simply what we make them. I have decided what I believe. And if this story Stephen tells is a lie - then I will make it true."

    The rocket flies over the ocean and explodes with Bucky still calling Steve's name.



    ***END SPOILERS****




    There's a lot going on in this issue but Bucky's fate is the biggest deal, in my opinion. It also clarifies what Zemo is thinking and whether reality is different for anyone besides Steve. From Zemo's words, we know that he still remembers things as they are but that Zemo is happier embracing Steve's version of reality, whether it's objectively true or not.

    In an age where facts have taken a backseat to belief and "truth" can be different from one individual to the next, no matter what empirical evidence may prove, this is a very timely aspect to this story. It very simply crystallizes Zemo's mindset. Steve didn't have to convince Zemo that his story was real - he only had to make him want to believe it was real.

    Anyhow, this is recommended reading for anyone who picked up Secret Empire #0 but haven't been following Steve's book.

  3. #3
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Thanks Prof. Warren. I don't know how I forgot the Bucky death. Well done.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    I agree that the Zemo monologue was key to this issue, and personally I think it underpins the whole story so far. This is indeed a story about the reality of interpretation. How framing past events effectively creates the reality we live in, including the institutions we create and the beliefs we hold and teach our children. Reframing those events can equally cause a revolution, and when people build political arguments that reframe events we should be particularly cautious of their motives.

    I find this incredibly powerful as a story framed around the reality of World War II, and have made the point a few times since the beginning of Steve Rogers: Captain America, because of all the major events that shaped our culture the narrative of WWII is the biggest, and also the most obviously interpreted and reinterpreted event. That narrative was built and polished and used as the main reason for much of what we see around us, and yet that narrative is interpreted and by its very nature not real. It is a considered and meaningful reflection of events, but it is a story.

    I don't say that in a spirit of historical denial, many of the events of that war are incontrovertible and undeniable, but we have placed a great deal of weight and interpretation upon those events to tell a story about ourselves and that is a rather cosy and rose-tinted version of events. This story looks at some of those events and points out things could have been very different and we could easily have built comparable stories to tell ourselves. Steve is telling himself a particularly dark story that he totally believes in, and he is building the institutions he believes the world deserves.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I agree that the Zemo monologue was key to this issue, and personally I think it underpins the whole story so far. This is indeed a story about the reality of interpretation. How framing past events effectively creates the reality we live in, including the institutions we create and the beliefs we hold and teach our children. Reframing those events can equally cause a revolution, and when people build political arguments that reframe events we should be particularly cautious of their motives.

    I find this incredibly powerful as a story framed around the reality of World War II, and have made the point a few times since the beginning of Steve Rogers: Captain America, because of all the major events that shaped our culture the narrative of WWII is the biggest, and also the most obviously interpreted and reinterpreted event. That narrative was built and polished and used as the main reason for much of what we see around us, and yet that narrative is interpreted and by its very nature not real. It is a considered and meaningful reflection of events, but it is a story.

    I don't say that in a spirit of historical denial, many of the events of that war are incontrovertible and undeniable, but we have placed a great deal of weight and interpretation upon those events to tell a story about ourselves and that is a rather cosy and rose-tinted version of events. This story looks at some of those events and points out things could have been very different and we could easily have built comparable stories to tell ourselves. Steve is telling himself a particularly dark story that he totally believes in, and he is building the institutions he believes the world deserves.
    Yes, he's definitely out to shape the present day to match his version of reality. It's a frightening thought that one man's version of reality, if that man were strong and charismatic enough to insist on it, would override what people already know to be true. As we see in current events, it's not as implausible an idea as we once might've thought.

  6. #6
    Rookie Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Yes, he's definitely out to shape the present day to match his version of reality. It's a frightening thought that one man's version of reality, if that man were strong and charismatic enough to insist on it, would override what people already know to be true. As we see in current events, it's not as implausible an idea as we once might've thought.
    It's actually kind of inspiring in a way. There are many stories about the lone hero standing up for what they believe in, even when the rest of the world tells them that they are wrong. We admire those that are able to hold true to their beliefs and change the world against all odds. So it has come to pass that through sheer force of will Captain America is poised to bring about his vision of a world ruled by Hydra's ideology. Steve Rogers has put in a lot of effort to make all this happen, to ensure there was nobody left who could contradict vision, you have to respect that surety of purpose if nothing else.

  7. #7
    Veteran Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    It's actually kind of inspiring in a way. There are many stories about the lone hero standing up for what they believe in, even when the rest of the world tells them that they are wrong. We admire those that are able to hold true to their beliefs and change the world against all odds. So it has come to pass that through sheer force of will Captain America is poised to bring about his vision of a world ruled by Hydra's ideology. Steve Rogers has put in a lot of effort to make all this happen, to ensure there was nobody left who could contradict vision, you have to respect that surety of purpose if nothing else.
    Probably better to say we admire some of them. Many dictators do exactly this too.

  8. #8
    Epic Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Probably better to say we admire some of them. Many dictators do exactly this too.
    True, or every Ghandi there's a Hitler.

    Still, in Steves case as evil as his actions are a part of me does sort of respect his ability to do what he's doing in a weird sort of way.

  9. #9
    Veteran Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    True, or every Ghandi there's a Hitler.

    Still, in Steves case as evil as his actions are a part of me does sort of respect his ability to do what he's doing in a weird sort of way.
    I guess we don't usually get to read a straight up villain book. Not where the protagonist actively wants to do evil, recruit bad people, destroy good people and betray those closest to him. Part of the enjoyment is seeing the whole plan come together before our eyes. I must admit I was caught flat footed on most of the shield stuff.

    Most of the rest was coming together nicely. I especially like the way they took the brain of Xavier off the table, but still stuck to the plan. No doubt the new plan will not be as effective as it could have been. I wonder if cap was acually considering placing that in his own head, or if he was going to trust someone else.

  10. #10
    Epic Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I guess we don't usually get to read a straight up villain book. Not where the protagonist actively wants to do evil, recruit bad people, destroy good people and betray those closest to him. Part of the enjoyment is seeing the whole plan come together before our eyes. I must admit I was caught flat footed on most of the shield stuff.

    Most of the rest was coming together nicely. I especially like the way they took the brain of Xavier off the table, but still stuck to the plan. No doubt the new plan will not be as effective as it could have been. I wonder if cap was acually considering placing that in his own head, or if he was going to trust someone else.
    Yeah, as effective as Steves plan was there were a few blips. It's almost interesting to wonder how things would have gone if everything went his way.

    If I'm Steve I almost wouldn't trust Xavier brain to anyone else.

  11. #11

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    Steve pretty much has all of the bases covered (and Madame Hydra has everything else covered). he's, seemingly, a better planner than Doctor Doom. I wonder how long Black Ant was spying on Rick. also noticed that Doc Faustus now has similar "powers" to the Agent Carter tv series version. I wonder if he's supposed to be the original or a descendant. I couldn't quite figure that out from his introduction.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  12. #12

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    I'm enjoying the idea of Helmut and Steve being bros. but I also expect Zemo to backstab him, at some point. he's already lied about the Cube.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  13. #13
    Epic Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I'm enjoying the idea of Helmut and Steve being bros. but I also expect Zemo to backstab him, at some point. he's already lied about the Cube.
    It'll be interesting to see how Zemo and Steve's relationship will be when this is all over and Steve returns to normal. Though their friendship was obviously a complete fabrication, I wonder if some of that will linger.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    This dovetails into SE #0 which fills in a lot of details I thought went missing.

    Spoilers

    1945 - Elisa brings Steve back to the Castle training facility and reunites Steve with his mother. She wasn't killed as we thought. Then Elisa sends Steve to rescue Zemo and then go to Japan to see Kraken. NOW - Maria Hill finds out Steve is Hydra and calls Rick Jones to tell him but as she does she is captured by Hydra goons. Rick tells Steve what Maria told him and Steve convinces Rick to trust him and to send the codes to shut down the Earth Shield. Rick sends it and Hydra goons burst in and arrest Rick. A suicide bomber blows up the Shield base camp and it opens the Shield (but really its Steve who opens it, the bomb damage is superficial). Then Steve transmits a message to all Hydra teams that this is the time to attack.

    End of Spoilers

    Its a good pre-read for SE #0 because it places the charaters in position. Not sure what the benefit of Steves mum is except it gave Steve his confidence back and made him believe, so maybe there is method in Elisas madness.
    I thought that Eric O'Grady punched him in the face. Hydra goons definitely came for Maria.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It'll be interesting to see how Zemo and Steve's relationship will be when this is all over and Steve returns to normal. Though their friendship was obviously a complete fabrication, I wonder if some of that will linger.
    I'm not sure that Helmut will be able to get over the death of his father; he lacks Steve's selflessness. it's the impetus of him becoming a villain. now that Steve has assured him that Heinrich was a good man, I get the feeling that this will eventually be the wedge. Helmut had Moonstone and Atlas retrieved the broken cube. he intends to use it. and he kept that information from Steve. could it be to resurrect his father?
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

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