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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    It's actually kind of inspiring in a way. There are many stories about the lone hero standing up for what they believe in, even when the rest of the world tells them that they are wrong. We admire those that are able to hold true to their beliefs and change the world against all odds. So it has come to pass that through sheer force of will Captain America is poised to bring about his vision of a world ruled by Hydra's ideology. Steve Rogers has put in a lot of effort to make all this happen, to ensure there was nobody left who could contradict vision, you have to respect that surety of purpose if nothing else.
    The best villains are the ones who see themselves as the hero of their story and that definitely applies to Steve.

    He's fighting for what he believes is the greater good and will overcome any obstacle that blocks him.

  2. #17
    Mighty Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I agree that the Zemo monologue was key to this issue, and personally I think it underpins the whole story so far. This is indeed a story about the reality of interpretation. How framing past events effectively creates the reality we live in, including the institutions we create and the beliefs we hold and teach our children. Reframing those events can equally cause a revolution, and when people build political arguments that reframe events we should be particularly cautious of their motives.

    I find this incredibly powerful as a story framed around the reality of World War II, and have made the point a few times since the beginning of Steve Rogers: Captain America, because of all the major events that shaped our culture the narrative of WWII is the biggest, and also the most obviously interpreted and reinterpreted event. That narrative was built and polished and used as the main reason for much of what we see around us, and yet that narrative is interpreted and by its very nature not real. It is a considered and meaningful reflection of events, but it is a story.

    I don't say that in a spirit of historical denial, many of the events of that war are incontrovertible and undeniable, but we have placed a great deal of weight and interpretation upon those events to tell a story about ourselves and that is a rather cosy and rose-tinted version of events. This story looks at some of those events and points out things could have been very different and we could easily have built comparable stories to tell ourselves. Steve is telling himself a particularly dark story that he totally believes in, and he is building the institutions he believes the world deserves.
    So in other words...Alternative Facts?
    Skeeter: Hey time traveling O5 members of the X-Men We don't take kindly to people who create a time paradox around here!

    Bartender: Now calm down Skeeter they aint hurtin nobody.

    Skeeter: No! I wanna know som'in from the "O5" How come you cant go back to your own timeline in the first place and how come when Reed Richards "fixed" the universe you wasnt put back and how come the changes that happn to you dont happn to your present day selves?

    Bartender: Skeeter I dont want trouble

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant God View Post
    So in other words...Alternative Facts?
    Only in the most crass manner. For example the Nazi War trails built a picture of reality based on a story. Indeed they made a film to show at the trial to make the narrative clear. It is still the general perception of WWII of most people today, but it isn't 'true' it's a version of events designed with a specific effect. WWII historians would argue over the facts presented and maybe even the problematic nature of how that story was taken up by the wider culture, but they wouldn't totally undermine the thrust of the argument, just that the story is overly simplistic and highly selective.

    It is a story that shaped our reality. For better or worse the way we perceive the war and what it was about was constructed as a narrative and then we reinforced it with political institutions and decisions.

    I believe Spencer is touching upon this in the way he talks about the war. That simpler time when everyone agreed. That's not history that's consensus reality. It's a story. The war was a complex mess and those that fought in it found it very difficult to talk about that mess because nobody wanted to hear that story.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-20-2017 at 04:52 PM.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Only in the most crass manner. For example the Nazi War trails built a picture of reality based on a story. Indeed they made a film to show at the trial to make the narrative clear. It is still the general perception of WWII of most people today, but it isn't 'true' it's a version of events designed with a specific effect. WWII historians would argue over the facts presented and maybe even the problematic nature of how that story was taken up by the wider culture, but they wouldn't totally undermine the thrust of the argument, just that the story is overly simplistic and highly selective.

    It is a story that shaped our reality. For better or worse the way we perceive the war and what it was about was constructed as a narrative and then we reinforced it with political institutions and decisions.

    I believe Spencer is touching upon this in the way he talks about the war. That simpler time when everyone agreed. That's not history that's consensus reality. It's a story. The war was a complex mess and those that fought in it found it very difficult to talk about that mess because nobody wanted to hear that story.
    I was thinking about America's modern political atmosphere (speaking of crass manner) where every group sees themselves as "heroes" and anyone who disagrees with them are the "villains" and some people spin the facts to make them or their group seem right. Captain HYDRA seeing things completely different is, in my opinion, Marvel doing a bit of a jab at Trump and the phrases "Alternative Facts" and "Make America Great Again".
    Skeeter: Hey time traveling O5 members of the X-Men We don't take kindly to people who create a time paradox around here!

    Bartender: Now calm down Skeeter they aint hurtin nobody.

    Skeeter: No! I wanna know som'in from the "O5" How come you cant go back to your own timeline in the first place and how come when Reed Richards "fixed" the universe you wasnt put back and how come the changes that happn to you dont happn to your present day selves?

    Bartender: Skeeter I dont want trouble

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant God View Post
    I was thinking about America's modern political atmosphere (speaking of crass manner) where every group sees themselves as "heroes" and anyone who disagrees with them are the "villains" and some people spin the facts to make them or their group seem right. Captain HYDRA seeing things completely different is, in my opinion, Marvel doing a bit of a jab at Trump and the phrases "Alternative Facts" and "Make America Great Again".
    Although it is quite clear the two Caps are analogous to the two most recent presidents I firmly believe there is much more to the story being presented than just a critique of them.

  6. #21
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Loving this story so far.

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    It's actually kind of inspiring in a way. There are many stories about the lone hero standing up for what they believe in, even when the rest of the world tells them that they are wrong. We admire those that are able to hold true to their beliefs and change the world against all odds. So it has come to pass that through sheer force of will Captain America is poised to bring about his vision of a world ruled by Hydra's ideology. Steve Rogers has put in a lot of effort to make all this happen, to ensure there was nobody left who could contradict vision, you have to respect that surety of purpose if nothing else.
    I cringe when I read this, because it sounds like justifying a criminals actions. In a bizarre way I could accept it, but because it's Steve Rogers, I have trouble attributing some kind of admiration to what is happening here in Secret Empire.

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I thought that Eric O'Grady punched him in the face. Hydra goons definitely came for Maria.
    Thanks. I'll edit that.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    I really hope they reveal Maria hill's fate soon since we were left with Maria hill being cornered by Steve's hydra goons that blocked her pathway and held her at gunpoint when she tried to escape and as you can clearly see Maria isn't injured/wounded and wasn't shown to have been killed so she's either captured? Or someone off panel helped her escape? I mentioned on the secret empire zero issue thread that it would be such a disappointment if they killed her off panel so hope that doesn't happen.

  10. #25
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    Raw deal for Bucky here. They made me suffer through a year of him on the the Thunderbolts with some of the worst art just so they could have Zemo blow him up in a different book LoL.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    I really hope they reveal Maria hill's fate soon since we were left with Maria hill being cornered by Steve's hydra goons that blocked her pathway and held her at gunpoint when she tried to escape and as you can clearly see Maria isn't injured/wounded and wasn't shown to have been killed so she's either captured? Or someone off panel helped her escape? I mentioned on the secret empire zero issue thread that it would be such a disappointment if they killed her off panel so hope that doesn't happen.
    she's appearing in Jessica Jones' book isn't she? I thought that was in the recent solicits.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  12. #27
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    I really hope they reveal Maria hill's fate soon since we were left with Maria hill being cornered by Steve's hydra goons that blocked her pathway and held her at gunpoint when she tried to escape and as you can clearly see Maria isn't injured/wounded and wasn't shown to have been killed so she's either captured? Or someone off panel helped her escape? I mentioned on the secret empire zero issue thread that it would be such a disappointment if they killed her off panel so hope that doesn't happen.
    Now that you mention it, Phil Coulson could have been tracking Maria Hill this whole time and it may be his time to jump in here and rescue Hill?

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Now that you mention it, Phil Coulson could have been tracking Maria Hill this whole time and it may be his time to jump in here and rescue Hill?
    Whatever happens I don't want to loose Hill as a character, and I doubt Marvel do either, she has developed so wonderfully over the years as the long suffering leader. She is such a vivid and relatable figure, and no other character quite fits her role. It is a constant disappointment that we never quite got this character reflected in the MCU, we had the casting, we even had deleted scenes from The Avengers that could have moved us in that direction.

  14. #29
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Whatever happens I don't want to loose Hill as a character, and I doubt Marvel do either, she has developed so wonderfully over the years as the long suffering leader. She is such a vivid and relatable figure, and no other character quite fits her role. It is a constant disappointment that we never quite got this character reflected in the MCU, we had the casting, we even had deleted scenes from The Avengers that could have moved us in that direction.
    You know what's tantalising now, is in Invincible Iron Man #6 there is the return of Lucia Von Badass, in her tech form from the end of Secret War, the Nick Fury one. She just took over Latveria, and this sets up Lucias first encounter with Doom if Marvel go that way. Lucia and Doom have never met, so this development has me intrigued too.

    But yes, long live Maria Hill, and, may she prosper and be fruitful.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Just had a radical thought. If we take Red Skull's monologue in issue #2 as a direct prediction, it is possible Red Skull used his Xavier Brain to convince multiple people he was both operated on and indeed dead. He seems to suggest in that monologue that he will watch Steve do everything and then walk in at the end.

    Is it hubris, or part of the plan?

    This is how I finally beat you, Rogers. By making you the best version of yourself. I always told you that you would be the pinnacle of man, if not for your corrupted soul. In this way, I have redeemed you now. I have made you my perfect warrior and together, we will do wondrous things.
    You will lead my army onto the field of battle and by your hand I shall inherit the earth. And when your friends lie dead around you, when all you once fought for is turned to a pile of ash, then you will kneel before me and speak the words Hail Hydra!
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-21-2017 at 06:58 AM.

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