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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Nope, while I'm not sure how popular The Atom is currently in DC, I highly doubt Ms.Marvel would have been as big of a success up front if she wasn't a legacy character. Again, look at the sales chart I posted. Outside of Black Panther, which is probably the biggest black character in comics written by one of the biggest names in current american writing, almost all the top sales are indeed legacy characters. The ones at the bottom? New characters like Mosaic and Moon Girl. Now Moon Girl has fantastic sales with scholastic, but the point is that at this moment, legacy characters has been essentially the only reason for success.

    Just look at the other thread about the new characters being generated, and how "upset" many of those readers are that we're getting "new characters" instead of bringing back even MORE classic characters like JSA and such. DC fanbase is even more resistant to diverse characters than marvel, as we can clearly see with the sale charts outside of Green Lantern. So when it comes to creating diverse characters, you need everything lined up as possible and in the current market, legacy titles give you a better option for survival.

    Now who knows, maybe DC may come with a hail mary with this new line up and have a LONG LASTING sales with these new characters. But again, the odds are extremely against their favor.
    Actually those complaints were about characters that were lost during the New 52 like Lorena Marquez, Damage, Hot Spot, Grace Choi etc. People know the JSA are coming back. They wanted the non classics as well.

    The sales are more due to lack of promotion, competing with other titles like the many Bat books and poor quality of the stories. Ask the people who've read Cyborg and Blue Beetle for instance.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-25-2017 at 10:50 AM.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desean101101 View Post
    No. Green lanturns can be in space on adventures and have some around earth for earth shit. Speedsters related to the flash needed to be trimmed down because it was getting fucking ridiculous.
    She's implied to be coming back at some point either way, may as well have an excuse to not use Barry for everything. I don't really see an issue with the larger Flash family, it's no different from having multiple Super and Bat people.

  3. #138
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  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlimeStack View Post
    She's implied to be coming back at some point either way, may as well have an excuse to not use Barry for everything. I don't really see an issue with the larger Flash family, it's no different from having multiple Super and Bat people.
    Honestly Bat's and Supe's have more rights to be territorial they are the first and for the most part only versions of their character. Barry isn't the first or only Flash.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Actually those complaints were about characters that were lost during the New 52 like Lorena Marquez, Damage, Hot Spot, Grace Choi etc. People know the JSA are coming back. They wanted the non classics as well.
    Some of them were about characters lost in the New 52, others were about character lost before New 52. It wasn't just new 52 characters.

    Originally Posted by Atlanta96 View Post
    Problem is, there are a LOT of beloved properties being ignored by DC right now while they work on this new line of ongoing series. How many characters or teams that have had successful solos in the past are being neglected? Booster Gold, The Milestone properties, Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain, Steph Brown, Kon El Superboy, Captain Marvel/Shazam, Young Justice, the JSA, Power Girl, Wally freaking West, I'm sure you could think of a few yourself.

    They could make good money off of many or most of those titles, but many won't even be given a chance. Meanwhile they're putting a lot of effort into unproven new characters that probably won't even last. It doesn't matter who it's for, if it's not profitable it doesn't deserve to exist.

    So don't expect all fans to be satisfied when DC's priorities are clearly messed up.

    And much of the comments were indeed like this. Just read through the thread, and you can clearly see an adverse feeling towards new characters because every single old character haven't been brought into the fold.

    The sales are more due to lack of promotion, competing with other titles like the many Bat books and poor quality of the stories. Ask the people who've read Cyborg and Blue Beetle for instance.
    Disagree, if many bat books were a lack of issue than other series would be running into the same problem. Instead, it only seem to primarily effect their minority books. Bat books wouldn't directly effect just minority books alone. Cyborg also originally had TONS of promotion back at the beginning when it first launched. When I purchased comixology books one of the last pages always had an advertisement for the Cyborg book. They also included one of their most well known artist on that book during the beginning arc. I purchased it all the way through and while the story was definitely average, the art was fantastic. So Cyborg does not fit the category you speak of. Blue Beetle perhaps, but not cyborg.

    So yeah, I go back to my original point. I can copy tons of post from the other thread all speaking on how they don't wish to support these new characters because the characters they like aren't in. So as stated before, they definitely have a adverse reaction to supporting new characters, and probably will until most of the "mainstay" characters from pre 52 to new 52 return. So again, I don't see this launch going well at all.

    I mean I huge problem with how Marvel killed War Machine in Civil War, but I still buy Ironheart and I'm glad I do because it's a great book.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Some of them were about characters lost in the New 52, others were about character lost before New 52. It wasn't just new 52 characters.
    With the exception of the Shazam, JSA and Wally West, none of those characters in that quote you mentioned are not exactly classics. Most are from the 90s. Not the types of characters DC heavily pushes. Hell, the post even mentioned the Milestone characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Disagree, if many bat books were a lack of issue than other series would be running into the same problem. Instead, it only seem to primarily effect their minority books. Bat books wouldn't directly effect just minority books alone. Cyborg also originally had TONS of promotion back at the beginning when it first launched. When I purchased comixology books one of the last pages always had an advertisement for the Cyborg book. They also included one of their most well known artist on that book during the beginning arc. I purchased it all the way through and while the story was definitely average, the art was fantastic. So Cyborg does not fit the category you speak of. Blue Beetle perhaps, but not cyborg.
    Comic readers have better things to spend their money on than average storytelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    So yeah, I go back to my original point. I can copy tons of post from the other thread all speaking on how they don't wish to support these new characters because the characters they like aren't in. So as stated before, they definitely have a adverse reaction to supporting new characters, and probably will until most of the "mainstay" characters from pre 52 to new 52 return. So again, I don't see this launch going well at all.

    I mean I huge problem with how Marvel killed War Machine in Civil War, but I still buy Ironheart and I'm glad I do because it's a great book.
    A lot of the characters that are in limbo were new at some point and are what got some into comics. Not exactly unreasonable for some to want them back. And even if these new characters catch on, what makes you think they won’t get limboed later on? Financial and critical success didn’t save Cass Cain, Wally West and the Milestone characters. What makes you think these new characters would be around forever even if fans take well to them. It isn’t just fans who control how these characters are used.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A lot of the characters that are in limbo were new at some point and are what got some into comics. Not exactly unreasonable for some to want them back. And even if these new characters catch on, what makes you think they won’t get limboed later on? Financial and critical success didn’t save Cass Cain, Wally West and the Milestone characters. What makes you think these new characters would be around forever even if fans take well to them. It isn’t just fans who control how these characters are used.
    Thank you.

    Cain PROVED a minority female lead book and Batgirl book could sell.
    Wally proved how a legacy follows in the footsteps of another.
    Static PROVED a minority can lead a tv show and be successful.

    Politics have screwed over way too many properties at DC.

    It's not that folks won't support new guys not named Duke Thomas-they will see Jessica & Simon outperforming Hal.

    What many have an issue with is top talent circling the wagons to protect these new guys from the backlash that Marvel dealt with not only from fans but store owners. Show me the store owner who will rip these books? If they fail they will praise DC for putting top planet on them. Never mind Marvel to a point did the same thing see Bendis, Soule, King, Coates, Ewing and others who have had success and acclaim.

    Where was this top talent for Tim Drake?

    Where was this top talent for Static? Who could WIPE the floor with Miles, Ms Marvel, Nova, Moon Girl, Black Panther, Falcon & Riri Williams if Johns, King, Lee or the A squad did his book.

    Where is it for Cyborg? This is the bozo that is the face of your black heroes with 3 (?) movie roles as a LEAD and NOBODY cares. David Walker nor Sempter-BOTH with experience writing black males with Sempter doing it on EMMY winning shows can't get folks to care. While Black Panther, Miles & Falcon came out and took names and kicked azz. And they are ALL doing with writers folks HATE.

    That is what frustrates folks. No one is saying or should be saying don't support these books-what they are saying is makes sure you do the same for the guys and gals who KEPT you employed.

    Those books don't happen without Cass, Static, Tim, Wally, Ted, Booster, Legion, Supergirl, Batgirl, Firestorm and all the rest who proved Dc Comics is MORE than Hal, Barry, Bruce, Clark & Wonder Woman.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With the exception of the Shazam, JSA and Wally West, none of those characters in that quote you mentioned are not exactly classics. Most are from the 90s. Not the types of characters DC heavily pushes. Hell, the post even mentioned the Milestone characters.
    My quote specifically stated some characters were pre 52, others were post 52. Your post does nothing but confirm my statement. As mentioned before, you only need to go through the full thread to see folks talking about characters both pre52 and new 52.


    Comic readers have better things to spend their money on than average storytelling.
    With a Triple A artist? I rather take a Triple A artist and average writer than a triple A writer and average artist. Of course the best option would be to have both but they believed they were doing good doing what a lot of people were asking for, giving Cyborg to a black writer who had previous success with his book Shaft. And there's plenty of books that are surviving with average writing and storytelling. So let's not pretend the only books that are successful is top quality writing and artwork.


    A lot of the characters that are in limbo were new at some point and are what got some into comics. Not exactly unreasonable for some to want them back. And even if these new characters catch on, what makes you think they won’t get limboed later on? Financial and critical success didn’t save Cass Cain, Wally West and the Milestone characters. What makes you think these new characters would be around forever even if fans take well to them. It isn’t just fans who control how these characters are used.
    Oh I never said DC was slate clean. DC has made so many mistakes it's not even funny. DC could screw these characters over in 2.5 seconds. I wouldn't be surprised by that. But right now, I don't see that happening. Because Marvel is killing them in the diversity aspect, and DC knows this, hence their passive aggressive jab at marvel on how to diversity the "right way" when they're losing that game to begin with with marvel. That's why they're dedicating their strongest tools for this push, because Marvel is this far ahead. So as long as Marvel continues to lead the way, there's a good chance DC won't self sabotage themselves. Then again, Rebirth probably kinda self sabotage them to begin with so eh, who knows.

  9. #144

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    I think it's a start in the right direction but it doesn't automatically make them better overall, that's too soon to call. Right now its different than what they normally do and that's something to applaud. Let's see if it works first.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    My quote specifically stated some characters were pre 52, others were post 52. Your post does nothing but confirm my statement. As mentioned before, you only need to go through the full thread to see folks talking about characters both pre52 and new 52.
    I was referring to this quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post

    Just look at the other thread about the new characters being generated, and how "upset" many of those readers are that we're getting "new characters" instead of bringing back even MORE classic characters like JSA and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    With a Triple A artist? I rather take a Triple A artist and average writer than a triple A writer and average artist. Of course the best option would be to have both but they believed they were doing good doing what a lot of people were asking for, giving Cyborg to a black writer who had previous success with his book Shaft. And there's plenty of books that are surviving with average writing and storytelling. So let's not pretend the only books that are successful is top quality writing and artwork.
    Unfortunately, DC hasn’t earned the good will for Cyborg to get by on average story telling. And And those other books also have a Triple A writer. You may not mind an average writer but not everyone feels that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Oh I never said DC was slate clean. DC has made so many mistakes it's not even funny. DC could screw these characters over in 2.5 seconds. I wouldn't be surprised by that. But right now, I don't see that happening. Because Marvel is killing them in the diversity aspect, and DC knows this, hence their passive aggressive jab at marvel on how to diversity the "right way" when they're losing that game to begin with with marvel. That's why they're dedicating their strongest tools for this push, because Marvel is this far ahead. So as long as Marvel continues to lead the way, there's a good chance DC won't self sabotage themselves. Then again, Rebirth probably kinda self sabotage them to begin with so eh, who knows.
    See Skyvolt2000’s post above. DC isn’t using their strongest tools. If they were Static, Cass and others would have their book. Hell, I can think of three characters DC could use to counter America Chavez, Black panther, Kate Bishop and Amadeus Cho respectively:

    Grace Choi: super strong LGBTQ woman of color

    Michael Holt: black scientist

    Artemis Crock: specifically the YJ cartoon version. Points for being a woman of color

    Kevin Kho: Asian American scientist who transforms into a hulking brute.

    You could say the New 52 was a self sabotage as well. Like all movements by DC and Marvel, Rebirth has its good and bad aspects. We'll see with this.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-26-2017 at 01:07 AM.

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