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  1. #31

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    I just can't get into those new Marvel legacy characters. Jane is tolerable only because I like Thors mythos.

  2. #32
    Veteran Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    DC worked because it was done over time and not as some gimmick as part of some reboot initiative. Also, most of them aren't replacements. Batwoman isn't replacing Batman. She's part of the Bat-family. Blue Beetle works because he comes across as an original concept. Ted Kord was a more colorful Batman. Jamie is DC's version of Iron Man. There are a gajillion Green Lanterns. The new Power Girl makes me uncomfortable more because of the name rather than the concept. But DC could use more giant characters. Robin teams up more with Superboy these days than he does Batman which I think works better because it's a good contrast of dark and light instead of dark and darker.
    Good points overall, but I totally disagree about Blue Beetle. Just because Ted Kord is rich and uses high tech toys, doesn't make him like Batman. Ted is an inventor first and foremost, plus he has a sense of humor. Ted is way more of a Tony Stark-type than Bruce is, let alone Jaime. Jaime uses a Scarab that does anything he wants to once he learns how to control it, Ted relies on his own inventions. Someone mentioned before that in terms of power set Jaime is a very different Blue Beetle than Ted and that further helps Jaime stand out, rather than just for the fact that he is Latino, which I totally agree with.
    Last edited by Johnny; 04-20-2017 at 08:23 PM.

  3. #33
    Veteran Member sakuyamons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofPrometheus View Post
    I just can't get into those new Marvel legacy characters. Jane is tolerable only because I like Thors mythos.
    I've been meaning to read Jane's run as Thor, I think it's very intriguing imo, Laura as Wolverine is on my list as well, I like Miles a lot, but Bendis' most recent writing of him has put me off.

  4. #34
    Veteran Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nnelg View Post
    Laura didn't need the name change. Neither did Dr. Doom. I also don't think Marvel is getting underserved crap. They have been pissing off their fan base for years. The replacements wasn't the first thing that has pissed fans off. It is just the newest. One More Day and Superior Spider-man are two examples.
    Oh, I don't deny that. OMD was compounded by the fact that they won't admit they were wrong either. RYV just comes across as a half-hearted attempt to shut people up more than anything else. And the petty replacing of mutants with inhumans because they don't have the rights to the movies. But would anyone argue that Carol Danvers doesn't deserve the title of Captain Marvel? Or that Miles doesn't deserve to be a Spider-Man even if he wasn't the "official" Spider-Man? Not every change was bad.
    Jokerize those fries!

  5. #35
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I've personally enjoyed or come to be a fan of or at least like several of Marvel's legacy heroes, but I've also been very critical of the treatment given to Marvel's bigger name heroes and characters I'm a major fan of in comparison or relation to those heroes, which has also kind of tempered my enthusiasm or opinion of Marvel.

    I respect and applaud Marvel for their massive push for diversity across their entire line, though I feel like DC has both found a good balance between classic and diverse while also retaining the core and identities of their main heroes, which I think Marvel has struggled with.

    But that's just me...

  6. #36
    Veteran Member unclepulky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    But would anyone argue that Carol Danvers doesn't deserve the title of Captain Marvel?
    After Civil War II, I most certainly would. In my eyes, she became a villain, and from what a friend of mine, who reads her solo book, says, she's done nothing to truly redeem herself.

    Carol was a great characters for decades, and I feel bad for both her and her fans. But right now, no, she doesn't deserve the mantle.
    World's Biggest Cassandra Cain Fan

  7. #37
    Veteran Member Johnny's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if there's a character in comics that I'm more indifferent to, than Carol Danvers. But I REALLY like Brie Larson so I gotta go see that gotdamn movie in a few years. Damn it!

  8. #38
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    But would anyone argue that Carol Danvers doesn't deserve the title of Captain Marvel?
    She does but remember that Marvel had promoted Monica Rambeau, an African-American woman, to be Captain Marvel much before Danvers. And then proceeded to basically ignore her and ultimately dumped her from the role once they wanted to push a white woman as their own "Wonder Woman". That left a bitter taste in my mouth. It does not seem like genuine diversity to me and weakened my trust in how true they would stay to their current diverse legacy characters once the publicity glow created by this initial wave would disappear. It's a big reason I haven't bothered growing attached to most of the new characters.

  9. #39
    Junior Member dimo1's Avatar
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    What many executives don't get is that you can't plan success, and just saying we change Peter Parker into Pia Parker and all of sudden millions of female readers will flock to the title is too simple.
    Famous and successful characters are created out of the blue, and yes, most of the mainstay ones are white males, because the main audience was as such back in the day.
    It is up to current creators to come up with homo, bi, transexual, and racially diverse ones to make readers want to read them.
    In Germany there is a very famous gay comic artist by the name of Ralf König, who reached a broader audience and even had some of his work put into film. His work is authentic, because he is just a creator who wants to tell a story, to entertain and not to cash grab.

    So all you clever people in your offices, no, we as readers are not against diversity, but don't take the easy way out, risk something, and maybe you have the next Spider/Super/Whateverman/woman, of whatever race, sex and sexuality.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakuyamons View Post
    I hate doing this, but let's take Duke for example, for some fans Duke is usurping the role Tim/Damian have in the family and ASB claims that it wants to be 'Better than Robin', it also doesn't help that he is on the background most of the time and it's hard to get invested on him (say whatever you want about Marvel's legacies, but they have personality). He also seems not to have place outside the BatVerse like the rest of the Batfamily do (Outlaws, Titans, Teen Titans) and unlike Steph and Cass, he doesn't have a previous fanbase. So it's hard to him to take flight,
    But I don't think that it has to do with diversity. I doubt that he would be more popular if he was white. Bringing in new characters is always hard and in case of the Batfamily that is allready quite big it is even harder.

    Duke gets at the moment the most hate because he is the new character that they are pushing the most (and are neglecting at the same time some more popular characters), before him the most hated character was Harper Row for the same reason, now as just a support character in TEC she is more tolerated.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I've personally enjoyed or come to be a fan of or at least like several of Marvel's legacy heroes, but I've also been very critical of the treatment given to Marvel's bigger name heroes and characters I'm a major fan of in comparison or relation to those heroes, which has also kind of tempered my enthusiasm or opinion of Marvel.

    I respect and applaud Marvel for their massive push for diversity across their entire line, though I feel like DC has both found a good balance between classic and diverse while also retaining the core and identities of their main heroes, which I think Marvel has struggled with.

    But that's just me...
    I agree and the key word here is balance.

    I don't have a problem with the companies pushing diversity at all but Marvel certainly didn't get the balance right.

    I'm not going to condemn Marvel but as G.Willow Wilson said, it's not just about "diversity" it's about "representation". It's not just about replacing existing heroes with POC or LGBT characters, it's about representing people who "might" be under represented and giving a voice to people who aren't really being heard (Ms Marvel is successful because it's about a teenage female superhero of faith that isn't a parody). Some changes are organic and flow out from the story the writer is telling (e.g Sam Wilson as Captain America or Jane Foster becoming Thor) but depowering Bruce Banner and then killing him, putting Tony Stark in a coma, Thor not being able to lift his own hammer e.t.c does not help anyone nor does it really endear people to their replacements.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I'm not going to condemn Marvel but as G.Willow Wilson said, it's not just about "diversity" it's about "representation". It's not just about replacing existing heroes with POC or LGBT characters, it's about representing people who "might" be under represented and giving a voice to people who aren't really being heard (Ms Marvel is successful because it's about a teenage female superhero of faith that isn't a parody). Some changes are organic and flow out from the story the writer is telling (e.g Sam Wilson as Captain America or Jane Foster becoming Thor) but depowering Bruce Banner and then killing him, putting Tony Stark in a coma, Thor not being able to lift his own hammer e.t.c does not help anyone nor does it really endear people to their replacements.
    The thing is that in the end the new diverse characters must appeal to the core readership, if they should be commercialy succsessfull, I doubt for example the the majority of the Ms Marvel readers are teenage muslim girls, and wouldn't be surprised if a big part of the fanbase are adult white men.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimo1 View Post
    In Germany there is a very famous gay comic artist by the name of Ralf König, who reached a broader audience and even had some of his work put into film. His work is authentic, because he is just a creator who wants to tell a story, to entertain and not to cash grab.
    But you can't really compare the German (or European) with the American comic book industry/market.

  14. #44
    Senior Member nnelg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I agree and the key word here is balance.

    I don't have a problem with the companies pushing diversity at all but Marvel certainly didn't get the balance right.

    I'm not going to condemn Marvel but as G.Willow Wilson said, it's not just about "diversity" it's about "representation". It's not just about replacing existing heroes with POC or LGBT characters, it's about representing people who "might" be under represented and giving a voice to people who aren't really being heard (Ms Marvel is successful because it's about a teenage female superhero of faith that isn't a parody). Some changes are organic and flow out from the story the writer is telling (e.g Sam Wilson as Captain America or Jane Foster becoming Thor) but depowering Bruce Banner and then killing him, putting Tony Stark in a coma, Thor not being able to lift his own hammer e.t.c does not help anyone nor does it really endear people to their replacements.
    How exactly was the whisper organic?

  15. #45
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The thing is that in the end the new diverse characters must appeal to the core readership, if they should be commercialy succsessfull, I doubt for example the the majority of the Ms Marvel readers are teenage muslim girls, and wouldn't be surprised if a big part of the fanbase are adult white men.
    Since the launch of the title, Ms. Marvel has been topping the digital charts, a market that is dominated by the non-adult white male demographic. So it would be able to sustain sales at least in digital format even if it loses some white male LCS readers. Digital is where the real money comes for that title.

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