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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member WillieMorgan's Avatar
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    Blimey, if Marvel had reached the same conclusions a couple of years ago then I'm sure that the Marvel boards on here would have been a lot more stress-free recently

    Between the 'Waah! They killed off my favourite character!' crowd on one side and the zombies who would defend Marvel even if they ran over their pet dogs on the other, there's been some fraught threads over there recently. All over comic-books. Is it really worth all that?

    In all seriousness, these sentiments are fine as long as DC has the conviction to see such an attitude through. If they can stay the course with these new characters as opposed to just relegating them to being a face in the background after six months or so then more power to them.
    Last edited by WillieMorgan; 04-21-2017 at 12:47 PM.

  2. #47
    DARKSEID LAUGHS... Crazy Diamond's Avatar
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    DC does diversity right by ensuring that the diverse characters will never, ever be able to seen on the same level as the characters their core fanbase likes no matter how popular they get.

    Original characters? Well, they're not from the Golden or Silver Age so we'll push them for awhile then stop. Considering how creator owned comics have gotten more and more shine why give your best ideas to DC or Marvel anymore?

    Legacy characters? It lasts for a while till a writer who preferred the "iconic" version comes along and pushes them out of the lead spot. Then they either get killed off, treated as also-rans, thrown under the bus, or reduced to wallpaper.

    So then they go to racebending and look at how well that works out (hi Wally).

    Is Marvel perfect? No. But look at the status of characters like Black Panther and Ms. Marvel and compare them to Cyborg and Blue Beetle. For all the talk about forced, Marvel's approach ensures that the characters will matter in the long run. Fans online whined when Luke Cage was made leader of the New Avengers years back but giving him that push put his name out there even more and built him up so the Netflix series could happen years later and get him even more fans. Now he's going to be in the Defenders series.

    But in terms of diversity I find that the best examples in comics are found outside of DC and Marvel. Because the comics were created to reflect the modern world from the begining, there isn't the need to do catch up years later like Marvel and DC have been doing.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    Is Marvel perfect? No. But look at the status of characters like Black Panther and Ms. Marvel and compare them to Cyborg and Blue Beetle. For all the talk about forced, Marvel's approach ensures that the characters will matter in the long run. Fans online whined when Luke Cage was made leader of the New Avengers years back but giving him that push put his name out there even more and built him up so the Netflix series could happen years later and get him even more fans. Now he's going to be in the Defenders series.

    But in terms of diversity I find that the best examples in comics are found outside of DC and Marvel. Because the comics were created to reflect the modern world from the begining, there isn't the need to do catch up years later like Marvel and DC have been doing.
    Totally agree. It's not simply just having them exist that solves the problem. It's making them matter. It's putting them on the same level in-story. They don't have to trump the existing characters but they don't need to always be subservient and in awe of them either.

  4. #49
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    When it comes to Marvel, my feeling is this, using Logan as an example. He is Wolverine. Bar none. Laura is X-23, not Wolverine. Don't try to peddle her to me as Wolverine. Old Man Logan is some old guy from an alternate universe, don't try to peddle him to me as Wolverine. Just give me freaking Wolverine. Marvel doesn't understand this basic concept. Whether it be for the sake of diversity or to some other convoluted end. They try to be too cute constantly and instead of being fun, its just exhausting.

    That's why I was so against the Superman status quo of the past year staying and so relieved when Superman Reborn ended it. It was just too Marvel. Too stupid.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 04-21-2017 at 09:11 AM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    DC does diversity right by ensuring that the diverse characters will never, ever be able to seen on the same level as the characters their core fanbase likes no matter how popular they get.

    Original characters? Well, they're not from the Golden or Silver Age so we'll push them for awhile then stop. Considering how creator owned comics have gotten more and more shine why give your best ideas to DC or Marvel anymore?

    Legacy characters? It lasts for a while till a writer who preferred the "iconic" version comes along and pushes them out of the lead spot. Then they either get killed off, treated as also-rans, thrown under the bus, or reduced to wallpaper.

    So then they go to racebending and look at how well that works out (hi Wally).

    Is Marvel perfect? No. But look at the status of characters like Black Panther and Ms. Marvel and compare them to Cyborg and Blue Beetle. For all the talk about forced, Marvel's approach ensures that the characters will matter in the long run. Fans online whined when Luke Cage was made leader of the New Avengers years back but giving him that push put his name out there even more and built him up so the Netflix series could happen years later and get him even more fans. Now he's going to be in the Defenders series.

    But in terms of diversity I find that the best examples in comics are found outside of DC and Marvel. Because the comics were created to reflect the modern world from the begining, there isn't the need to do catch up years later like Marvel and DC have been doing.


    Ding ding ding, that's why the post here regarding DC's diversity is grade a ridiculous. How in the world can fans literally state the diversity is done right here when the ONLY book that's a possible financial success from DC diverse wise, is a legacy book, the same legacy books that mostly sell relatively well at Marvel. The answer is simple, the fans here got their classic characters back. That's truly all they really care about. The fact that Cyborg, New Superman, and other titles continue to sell less then the marvel counterparts that "they ridicule", even their series have been out for much less time, reveals that.

    Marvel has found a way to give diverse characters the ability to survive in a market that continues to shun them. Was it pretty? Nope, did it cause backlash from classic readers, you bet. But now Marvel is going to have it's cake and eat it to by bringing back the classic characters WHILE still having successful legacy characters. So DC is going to need a miracle to get their new projects to work because if they can't get Cyborg to sell, when he's a founding father and was given an A list artist to start the book, the chances that these books are going to be a continual success are low. They will start out high, their first issues will most likely be huge, but the taper off is going to be crazy.

  6. #51
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Ding ding ding, that's why the post here regarding DC's diversity is grade a ridiculous. How in the world can fans literally state the diversity is done right here when the ONLY book that's a possible financial success from DC diverse wise, is a legacy book, the same legacy books that mostly sell relatively well at Marvel. The answer is simple, the fans here got their classic characters back. That's truly all they really care about. The fact that Cyborg, New Superman, and other titles continue to sell less then the marvel counterparts that "they ridicule", even their series have been out for much less time, reveals that.

    Marvel has found a way to give diverse characters the ability to survive in a market that continues to shun them. Was it pretty? Nope, did it cause backlash from classic readers, you bet. But now Marvel is going to have it's cake and eat it to by bringing back the classic characters WHILE still having successful legacy characters. So DC is going to need a miracle to get their new projects to work because if they can't get Cyborg to sell, when he's a founding father and was given an A list artist to start the book, the chances that these books are going to be a continual success are low. They will start out high, their first issues will most likely be huge, but the taper off is going to be crazy.
    It's weird you say that because whatever Marvel is doing now, DC did it in DC You. And whatever Marvel is set to do in the summer, DC did it in Rebirth. Yeah, for all the talk of "classics returning to take back their title from legacy characters" in Rebirth, that's only true for White Wally. And still NuWally exists and became a separate character. Rebirth was literally DC "having its cake and eating it too". Other than Ms. Marvel and Miles, how many diverse characters are selling better than Green Lanterns and Cyborg again? Riri Williams maybe, and her book is at what, issue 5 or 6 currently?

    That's not to say DC is flawless with diversity. They need bigger pushes for non-legacy diverse characters like Vixen, Black Lightning, Apollo and Midnighter on all media platforms. But they are getting there. Not to mention the DCEU is more open to diverse casting when it comes to their lead characters (Aquaman and dad played by Samoan actors, Flash and Wonder Woman played by Jewish actors, a black superhero like Cyborg already included in the very first team-up movie as a main member unlike the first two Avengers which were all white when it came to the mains). And while there were controversies about Marvel downplaying Black Widow merchandise, DC celebrated its female characters and made them a brand of their own through DC Superhero Girls.

    I think it is fair to say that DC is indeed doing a better job than "People don't seem to want diversity" Marvel.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Not to mention the DCEU is more open to diverse casting when it comes to their lead characters (Aquaman and dad played by Samoan actors, Flash and Wonder Woman played by Jewish actors, a black superhero like Cyborg already included in the very first team-up movie as a main member unlike the first two Avengers which were all white when it came to the mains).
    The actor playing vision is white but vision is not white.Of course i saw pic of him as a white person in the upcoming avengers movie,but somehow he was turn that way.
    The mcu is open to diverse leads,more so then the dceu and live action dc tv.
    Agents of shield,upcoming runaways,inhumans,cloak and dagger and the upcoming the new warriors.For fox/marvel entertainment tv there is the x-men upcoming show gifted.
    Even on the mcu netflix major supporting characters are really main characters too.The recurring characters are the supporting characters.


    I think it is fair to say that DC is indeed doing a better job than "People don't seem to want diversity" Marvel.
    Incorrect.
    Marvel is still doing a better job with diversity overall.I like the marvel way better when it comes to diversity dealing with the shows,games,mcu web episiodes,mcu one shots,comics and movies.
    Thank you.
    Last edited by mace11; 04-21-2017 at 12:44 PM.

  8. #53
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mace11 View Post
    The actor laying vision is white but vision is not white.Of course i saw pic of him as a white person in the upcoming avengers movie,but somehow he was turn that way.
    The mcu is open to diverse leads,more so then the dceu and live action dc tv.
    Agents of shield,upcoming runaways,inhumans,cloak and dagger and the upcoming the new warriors.For fox/marvel entertainment tv there is the x-men upcoming show gifted.
    Even on the mcu netflix major supporting characters are really main characters too.The recurring characters are the supporting characters.
    What would make you think that given the DCEU and Arrowverse TV shows are all incredibly diverse?

    And would that "major supporting characters are really main characters too" also be true for the Arrowverse? With all the stories and focus John Diggle, Curtis Hot, Sara Lance, the West Family, Cisco Ramon, Martian Manhunter, Alex Danvers, Maggie Sawyer, and Vixen have received?

    We even have a new Black Lightning show coming up with a focal African-American cast, with animated web-series set in the Arrowverse and starring diverse leads.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    It's weird you say that because whatever Marvel is doing now, DC did it in DC You. And whatever Marvel is set to do in the summer, DC did it in Rebirth. Yeah, for all the talk of "classics returning to take back their title from legacy characters" in Rebirth, that's only true for White Wally. And still NuWally exists and became a separate character. Rebirth was literally DC "having its cake and eating it too". Other than Ms. Marvel and Miles, how many diverse characters are selling better than Green Lanterns and Cyborg again? Riri Williams maybe, and her book is at what, issue 5 or 6 currently?

    That's not to say DC is flawless with diversity. They need bigger pushes for non-legacy diverse characters like Vixen, Black Lightning, Apollo and Midnighter on all media platforms. But they are getting there. Not to mention the DCEU is more open to diverse casting when it comes to their lead characters (Aquaman and dad played by Samoan actors, Flash and Wonder Woman played by Jewish actors, a black superhero like Cyborg already included in the very first team-up movie as a main member unlike the first two Avengers which were all white when it came to the mains). And while there were controversies about Marvel downplaying Black Widow merchandise, DC celebrated its female characters and made them a brand of their own through DC Superhero Girls.

    I think it is fair to say that DC is indeed doing a better job than "People don't seem to want diversity" Marvel.
    Wait what? DC You didn't have superheroes being replaced by legacy counterparts. There was no minority replacement for superman, or batman, or the flash, or Aquaman. So it definitely wasn't the same. DC You was them trying out different themes of books, from noir to wisecracking style, primarily because of the success of batgirl. So ANAD and DC You is completely different. ANAD was primarily about bringing in a new universe, sidelining classic characters for diverse legacy characters, and pushing them to a successful area. DC You was trying out different theme of books so that people who weren't interested in a old school superhero style writing had a book they could pick up as well. To be honest, new52 was closer to ANAD and even that didn't go anywhere near as far as ANAD. It was still Clark, still Bruce, still Diana, still Barry (though wally was replaced, probably the closest you saw to it being like ANAD). Ultimately, ANAD is unlike anything has ever done or probably will do. Rebirth was essentially having it's cake, there's no eating it. As mention before, the classic characters are back to where people want them to be. But their diverse characters sells wise are suffering minus Green Lantern.

    In terms of actual sales, well it depends upon what we're talking about. For example Moon Girl and Dinosaurs sells the lowest in the printed market, but is a huge seller in the scholastic market. Ms Marvel sells more then cyborg and new superman, but makes most of her sells within the digital market. Below are sales for March 2017

    19 22 Batwoman 1* $2.99 DC 54,849
    32 53 Wonder Woman 19 $2.99 DC 46,745
    33 23 All New Wolverine 18 $3.99 Marvel 46,731
    37 24 America 1 $3.99 Marvel 43,592
    39 60 Harley Quinn 15 $2.99 DC 43,264
    54 48 Black Panther 12 $3.99 Marvel 37,612
    57 50 Mighty Thor 17 $3.99 Marvel 36,106
    59 87 Green Lanterns 18 $2.99 DC 35,824
    60 90 Green Lanterns 19 $2.99 DC 35,368
    65 55 Spider-Gwen 18 $3.99 Marvel 34,810
    67 57 Spider-Man 14 $3.99 Marvel 33,403
    78 72 Hulk 4 $3.99 Marvel 30,304

    82 79 Mighty Captain Marvel 3 $3.99 Marvel 28,649
    90 75 Jessica Jones 6 $3.99 Marvel 27,342
    92 91 Gwenpool 13 $3.99 Marvel 26,850
    95 119 Batgirl 9 $2.99 DC 25,469
    103 128 Supergirl 7 $2.99 DC 24,592
    104 101 Totally Awesome Hulk 17 $3.99 Marvel 23,020
    119 120 Ms Marvel 16 $3.99 Marvel 19,172
    122 164 Superwoman 8 $2.99 DC 18,857
    133 135 Black Widow 12 $3.99 Marvel 17,720
    134 137 Captain America Sam Wilson 20 $3.99 Marvel 17,496
    145 114 Totally Awesome Hulk 1.MU $4.99 Marvel 16,040
    146 151 Black Panther World of Wakanda 5 $3.99 Marvel 15,847
    148 152 Spider-Man 2099 21 $3.99 Marvel 15,770
    150 190 New Super Man 9 $2.99 DC 15,576
    152 157 Silk 18 $3.99 Marvel 15,464
    155 159 Nova 4 $3.99 Marvel 15,323
    155 159 Nova 4 $3.99 Marvel 15,323
    158 194 Cyborg 10 $2.99 DC 14,977
    160 197 Blue Beetle 7 $2.99 DC 14,690
    164 166 Power Man and Iron Fist 14 $3.99 Marvel 14,174
    193 195 Odyssey of The Amazons 3 $3.99 DC 11,013
    210 221 Midnighter and Apollo 6 $3.99 DC 9,111
    218 239 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur 17 $3.99 Marvel 8,273
    244 267 Mosaic 6 $3.99 Marvel 6,812


    The ones in bold are DC's racial minorities. So let's take a look.


    1) As you can see, Marvel produces quite a bit more racial minority books.

    2) Most of Marvel's racial minority books dominate sales in comparison to DC's counterpart.


    It's literally no competition, none specifically in the comic book side of things.


    Now bringing different media areas doesn't count, because different medias have different fan base. We aren't talking about movies or television, we're talking about specifically comics. These Rebirth that's going on is completely different then even the movies that's coming out, so it can't be compared. I will admit that within television, DC is definitely better than marvel, and within movies it's pretty close. But when specifically referencing to comics, there's no way sales wise we can say DC handles diversity better than marvel. DC produces less books then marvel and their books sell much less than marvel's. That's why I said people who actually pay attention to diversity within the comic book field would never say such things.

  10. #55
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Now bringing different media areas doesn't count, because different medias have different fan base. We aren't talking about movies or television, we're talking about specifically comics. These Rebirth that's going on is completely different then even the movies that's coming out, so it can't be compared. I will admit that within television, DC is definitely better than marvel, and within movies it's pretty close. But when specifically referencing to comics, there's no way sales wise we can say DC handles diversity better than marvel. DC produces less books then marvel and their books sell much less than marvel's. That's why I said people who actually pay attention to diversity within the comic book field would never say such things.
    And animation, where DC's pretty much always dominated Marvel in some form .

  11. #56
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    Added info above.
    Marvel has more team books with greater diversity then dc,and of course more team books.
    By the way dc needs more team books like they did before.That will help with diversity.

  12. #57
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mace11 View Post
    Added info above.
    Marvel has more team books with greater diversity then dc,and of course more team books.
    By the way dc needs more team books like they did before.That will help with diversity.
    I don't think we need to see them flood the market with Justice League books just yet, or another teen hero book like Young Justice before the Titans franchise is in a more stable and stronger place.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mace11 View Post
    The actor laying vision is white but vision is not white.Of course i saw pic of him as a white person in the upcoming avengers movie,but somehow he was turn that way.
    The mcu is open to diverse leads,more so then the dceu and live action dc tv.
    Agents of shield,upcoming runaways,inhumans,cloak and dagger and the upcoming the new warriors.For fox/marvel entertainment tv there is the x-men upcoming show gifted.
    Even on the mcu netflix major supporting characters are really main characters too.The recurring characters are the supporting characters.



    Incorrect.
    Marvel is still doing a better job with diversity overall.I like the marvel way better when it comes to diversity dealing with the shows,games,mcu web episiodes,mcu one shots,comics and movies.
    Thank you.
    The DCEU has Suicide Squad which is the most racial and gender diverse superhero film and this was only the third entry. You've got a Native American and Native Hawain man playing Aquaman and a Jewish woman playing WW and Cyborg getting his own film. The MCU is mostly white males and it took them forever to break from this mold.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    What would make you think that given the DCEU and Arrowverse TV shows are all incredibly diverse?

    And would that "major supporting characters are really main characters too" also be true for the Arrowverse? With all the stories and focus John Diggle, Curtis Hot, Sara Lance, the West Family, Cisco Ramon, Martian Manhunter, Alex Danvers, Maggie Sawyer, and Vixen have received?

    We even have a new Black Lightning show coming up with a focal African-American cast, with animated web-series set in the Arrowverse and starring diverse leads.
    Yes that would be true for dc tv.When you think about for shows these days,so called supporting roles are really main roles too,and the recurring roles would be supporting roles these.
    Think of the star trek shows.
    Now one main difference the team shows.
    The main cast would officially co-leads.
    Dare devil and arrow for example in their shows are still the top main leads and would get the most focus,while in team shows like aos,dc legends of tomorrow, upcoming inhumans etc..all main cast are officially co-leads.
    Cloak and dagger of course the actors are co-leads and it's really a team up show,not a team show like the others.Those two will be the main main focus/leads but the main cast will get major focus too.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    DC does diversity right by ensuring that the diverse characters will never, ever be able to seen on the same level as the characters their core fanbase likes no matter how popular they get.

    Original characters? Well, they're not from the Golden or Silver Age so we'll push them for awhile then stop. Considering how creator owned comics have gotten more and more shine why give your best ideas to DC or Marvel anymore?

    Legacy characters? It lasts for a while till a writer who preferred the "iconic" version comes along and pushes them out of the lead spot. Then they either get killed off, treated as also-rans, thrown under the bus, or reduced to wallpaper.

    So then they go to racebending and look at how well that works out (hi Wally).

    Is Marvel perfect? No. But look at the status of characters like Black Panther and Ms. Marvel and compare them to Cyborg and Blue Beetle. For all the talk about forced, Marvel's approach ensures that the characters will matter in the long run. Fans online whined when Luke Cage was made leader of the New Avengers years back but giving him that push put his name out there even more and built him up so the Netflix series could happen years later and get him even more fans. Now he's going to be in the Defenders series.

    But in terms of diversity I find that the best examples in comics are found outside of DC and Marvel. Because the comics were created to reflect the modern world from the begining, there isn't the need to do catch up years later like Marvel and DC have been doing.
    Cyborg and Blue Beetle may not selling well in comics but they get a lot of attention in other media.

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