Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 147
  1. #1
    Newbie Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    6

    Default Some help understanding Secret Wars (2015)?

    I have a couple of questions/bones to pick on the 2015 Secret Wars event, and I was hoping someone here would be willing to chime in and help with my mental gaps.

    I am a long-time comic book reader although admittedly in the past few years it’s been on-and-off, but generally should be used to the crazy retcons and suspension of disbelief scenarios. But two areas in Secret Wars in particular I thing are just beyond that.

    I was wondering if there was ever some sort of explanation for the below, or it maybe I was just misunderstanding something completely. The following two issues ruined the event (and subsequent relaunch) a bit for me, no matter of well written/drawn specific arcs may have been:

    1. It looks like the different “worlds” within Battle World are, in many cases, the same character from 616 from different points in time. I would understand if it was just characters from different realities but, how do you explain a Spider-man from 616 from time X, and then the same 616 Spider-man from time Y? Wouldn’t grabbing a character from an earlier timeline just automatically exclude anything past that point?
    2. From a sociopolitical standpoint, I’m not seeing how it makes sense to have these battle world pockets where Doom is king and everyone acknowledges that, without questioning it. For example, how does Captain America make sense here, where there is no USA? People living there are not living zombies, they are regular functioning human beings and yet, nobody questions what “English” is, in a world with no “England” (or any number of Italians or any different region living in one the New Yorks), or any kind of historical event that has shaped their cities and defined lots of these people?




    The first one actually is apparently the same that happened on DC’s Convergence - at least they did have a reasonable explanation on #2, but with a number of other different issues.

    Thanks!

    Alan

  2. #2
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    8,372

    Default

    I'm not sure these are problems when understanding these "domains" are isolated chunks of alternate universes. The Multiverse was destroyed, but Dr Doom preserved about 40 or more of these alternate universes on Battleworld. If you read the story of Victor von Dooms consort, Susan von Doom, you would understand Battleworld was in total darkness for a time, until Doom took one source of light, Jonny Storm, and exiled Johnny into the sky to give daytime. Once that development was in place, Doom then took action to divide the southern badlands from the northern habitable domains. (It's all starting to sound a little biblical when it's put that way). After that, Doom went to each domain and picked a Baron to rule over it, and take responsibility for keeping the domain obedient to god Doom. Then Doom created the Angels, or Thors, to upkeep Battleworld, in case there are any disobedience issues.

    You have to remember, there was terrifying chaos during the Darkness on Battleworld, until Doom instilled the security and stability that he did. During that chaos of darkness, the people who were the recipients of Dooms stability were instantly in agreement with all Doom had done, as instanced by Sue Von Dooms admiration for Victor. Compliance by the domains on Battleworld was universal, because Doom supplied security in what was a horrible nightmare World without Dooms presence. All the assumptions the alternative populace might have for someone as evil as Doom, evaporated in the circumstance of the Darkness era on Battleworld, full of Zombies, and Ultrons roaming freely in the dark. Doom then becomes a saviour in those circumstances.

    Now as for your issues with Secret Wars

    1. There were no multiple 616 Spidermen on Battleworld. They were all alternative version of Spider-Man.

    2. I hope I have given context to your misgivings of why people accepted Doom as King. It's like people were drowning and reached out their hand to anybody who would save them. God Doom is who they reached for, and they were grateful to be saved.

  3. #3
    Spectacular Member Sensational C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    197

    Default

    Welcome to the forums!
    As jackolover said the different domains where the remaining universes that were left in the multiverse, not different timelines.

    I think each domain remembers parts of their respective past world besides a few things Doom made them forget, as Sue tells Franklin about her version of the Fantastic Four before the incursions happened which would be why Steve is still Captain America/why English exists.

  4. #4
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    8,985

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sensational C View Post
    Welcome to the forums!
    As jackolover said the different domains where the remaining universes that were left in the multiverse, not different timelines.

    I think each domain remembers parts of their respective past world besides a few things Doom made them forget, as Sue tells Franklin about her version of the Fantastic Four before the incursions happened which would be why Steve is still Captain America/why English exists.
    That issue with Sue's story plus SW #3 are the keys to understanding it all IMO.


    When Alex Powers and Val discover what remained of the Raft that Thanos and his group used, Stephen went to go check it out. Miles was the only one still inside and Stephen was surprised that he remembered the final incursion




    It does get explained a bit by Stephen to the heroes from Earth Prime ( or what some called Earth 616) that eight years had past for those living on Battleworld. They kept a degree of memories from their respective pasts on the Earths from the multiverses that were saved.

    But even at the time of the comics came out, a lot of people here were still confused. Many still thought that Victor married "our" Sue when Hickman and Brevoort both explained in a CBR piece that she was killed when her section of the raft got separated from Reed's and blew up.

    Another key thing was that Victor and Stephen tried to limit travel between the different sections of Battleworld. His barons were the exception since we do see them coming to Doom's court.

    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 04-28-2017 at 06:47 AM.
    Doctor Doom Appreciation Thread at CBR Forums
    My old SuperHero Squad name: Steel Divine Duke

  5. #5
    Newbie Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Thanks both for help clearing things up!

    1. I'm not sure why I thought characters were plucked from different points in time within 616 (Spider-man was only used as an example, I though I'd seen this on multiple occasions), it certainly clears things up if there is absolutely no repetition between the different zones and it's just non-616 universes.

    2. Not questioning compliance to Doom, or accepting him as king. It's the lack of questioning of "what was there before", meaning before the darkness as well, from that sociopolitical standpoint. I fully understand why people would accept and welcome Doom's control and protection, that makes perfect sense, as does the power structure and hierarchy that was established. I just think it's stretching the imagination quite a bit to believe the people would not question "what was there before the darkness".

    When reading it (this was actually several months ago, may be misremembering some details) it seemed as if people took it for given the world just went from a state of chaos and darkness into the state we see in Secret Wars, without any question or regards for what may have happened before - in fact it seems they understood there was "nothing" before.

    I don't recall mentions of, or people acknowledging, there was a previous universe that was destroyed, evolving like "previous universe --> darkness --> doom world", it seems everyone understood it was just darkness first. That's what I was having trouble wrapping my head around really.

  6. #6
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    758

    Default

    The best answer for how Battleworld worked was given in "Secret Wars" (#3 or 4 I think), when Doctor Strange pointed out that it works best if you do not think about it too hard.

    It looks like the different “worlds” within Battle World are, in many cases, the same character from 616 from different points in time. I would understand if it was just characters from different realities but, how do you explain a Spider-man from 616 from time X, and then the same 616 Spider-man from time Y? Wouldn’t grabbing a character from an earlier timeline just automatically exclude anything past that point?
    Battleworld was assembled from pieces of alternate timelines. The Spider-Man of the Manhattan zone was not the Spider-Man of the Regency, or the Peter Parker of Timely or the Peter Parker(s) of the area that "Spider-Verse" was in.


    2. Not questioning compliance to Doom, or accepting him as king. It's the lack of questioning of "what was there before", meaning before the darkness as well, from that sociopolitical standpoint.
    Doom essentially "back-wrote" much of Battleworld's history. A few series ("Mighty Defenders", "Korvac Saga" and "Armor Wars" come to mind) show characters remembering pre-Battleworld as a dream. But, anybody living on Battleworld had a working memory of always having lived on Battleworld (as shown in "the Siege" and a few other series), beyond the several years of real history that Battleworld was supposed to have had.

    Sue remembering that she and her friends crashed on Battleworld was more than most residents would have remembered. (And, even her memories were fuzzed up by Doom.) Most characters (such as Brand in "the Siege") would have remembered growing up on Battleworld (as back-written by Doom). The Tony Stark of "Armor Wars" remembered his childhood from his native timeline as a dream, which contradicted the childhood that he lived through on Battleworld.

    A combination of regulation (restrictions on travel and scientific inquiry), social norms (not questioning certain assumptions) and human nature (not thinking too hard about stuff that happened more than a few years ago) sort of held things together. As I said above, it worked better the less people (on page and off) thought about it.

    Some zones had an America, or something like it. (For example, "Civil War" was set more or less in the US.) Other zones would have had an England. In one case (shown in "Mighty Defenders"), somebody had a Union Jack, but nobody quite knew why.


    But even at the time of the comics came out, a lot of people here were still confused. Many still thought that Victor married "our" Sue when Hickman and Brevoort both explained in a CBR piece that she was killed when her section of the raft got separated from Reed's and blew up.
    This depends on who was asked, and when. At one point, the official line was the Doom married 616 Sue and altered her memories. Later, the official line was that Doom married an alternate Sue (from a world where she never met Reed) and sired his own Franklin and Valeria.

    Marvel likely decided that having Doom marry (and alter the memories of) 616 Sue was a step too far in to the realm of "creepy as hell". But, the alternative is also pretty creepy and icky. (I leave it to you to decide which you find more distressing.)
    Current pull-file:
    -Sword Quest
    -
    -Venom
    -the Vision (Director's Cut)
    -WWE

    -----------------------------
    - http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

  7. #7
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    8,985

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPower View Post
    The best answer for how Battleworld worked was given in "Secret Wars" (#3 or 4 I think), when Doctor Strange pointed out that it works best if you do not think about it too hard.
    Look a few posts ups and I have the exact panel and issue# posted

    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPower View Post


    This depends on who was asked, and when. At one point, the official line was the Doom married 616 Sue and altered her memories. Later, the official line was that Doom married an alternate Sue (from a world where she never met Reed) and sired his own Franklin and Valeria.

    Marvel likely decided that having Doom marry (and alter the memories of) 616 Sue was a step too far in to the realm of "creepy as hell". But, the alternative is also pretty creepy and icky. (I leave it to you to decide which you find more distressing.)
    But until we hear otherwise, that's just fan conjecture. I wish I had gone to C2E2 'cause I would have asked Hickman in person. He's been pretty receptive to my questions before, as long it's not spoilers. But from the very first interviews he said Sue is dead. I've never seen an interview that sayss she survived the last incurion. The raft went boom....they're dead. Brevoort even maintains that Val and Franklin are Doom's biological children. IMO this is why Stephen is given dialogue that is very specific about saying 8 years have passed while the others were in the raft.

    Doctor Doom Appreciation Thread at CBR Forums
    My old SuperHero Squad name: Steel Divine Duke

  8. #8
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    758

    Default

    Look a few posts ups and I have the exact panel and issue# posted
    I missed the issue number. But, yup, that is the page I was thinking of.


    But until we hear otherwise, that's just fan conjecture. I wish I had gone to C2E2 'cause I would have asked Hickman in person. He's been pretty receptive to my questions before, as long it's not spoilers.
    I remember an interview with somebody, somewhere, that indicated Sue was supposed to be 616 Sue and the kids were the 616 kids. The kid's ages would support this. (Assume that Valeria is 4 or 5, and that Franklin is 6 or 7 when the last incursion happened. Add 8 years of Battleworld time, bringing the kids up to 13 and 15.) The science ministry staff also consisted of (partially aged up) Future Foundation students. Similarly, Battleworld Sue seemed to recognize 616 Reed.

    Hickman seemed to get the problem with this from the beginning. If Battleworld Sue was 616 Sue, Doom effectively brainwashed and kidnapped her (along with the kids). Reed could easily forgive Sue for this, as she would have been attacked and subverted. Sue could likely get past it. And, the marriage would ultimately survive.

    But, there would be no coming back for Doom. It would be all but impossible for any writer to use Doom in any sort of relatively benign context after that. Doom would not necessarily be Marvel's Doctor Light, but it would be close. (Yes, I know that DC rebranded Deathstroke the Terminator. But, Deathstroke was a lower profile character whose "uncomfortably real" felonies were committed with a d-lister, not a main character like Sue Richards.)


    Sue's bed-time story to Franklin would imply Doom is kind of a bastard. And, it fits a pattern established (likely at Hickman's orders).

    Sue described landing on Battleworld after some kind of failed inter-dimensional trip. (This implies that she knew that Battleworld is not her home, even if she did not know the entire truth.) Sue et al (her father, Ben Grimm and her brother) landed somewhere south of what would eventually be the Shield wall. Her father was killed before Doom could arrive. Then, the following events occur.
    -Doom and Sue marry, eventually producing 2 children who are both over the age of 8 (the linear age of Battleworld) by the time of the events shown in "Secret Wars".
    -Johnny is exiled to high orbit.
    -Ben is assigned to become the Shield wall, in order to protect the world. (This may have been something that Ben agreed to.) Ben becoming the Shield happened before the birth of the kids.

    Doom's marriage with Sue clearly incorporated the back-written history of Battleworld (as it would require more time than Battleworld's linear existence would have allowed for). Back-written history would be the case regardless of where Battleworld Sue originated.

    However, if Doom used an alternate Sue, we have to assume that he picked and chose. He would have selected a Sue who never met a Reed, implying he skipped over less desirable Sue variants.

    Besides the specified lack of Reed variants on Battleworld, there is also a lack of Fantastic Four members in general.

    616 and Ultimate Reed showed up, but were not "native" to Battleworld. Doom and his family (regardless of where they originated) are the closest to a complete set. The Ultimate Sue and Johnny were in "Ultimate End" (which raises other questions). One of the anthologies had a reference to the "replacement" team (Spider-Man, Hulk, Ghost Rider and Wolverine). And, there was a Thor-themed FF at the wall during "the Siege".

    Doom picking and choosing a Sue is consistent with the lack of FF variants on Battleworld.
    Current pull-file:
    -Sword Quest
    -
    -Venom
    -the Vision (Director's Cut)
    -WWE

    -----------------------------
    - http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

  9. #9
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    8,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alan-c View Post
    Thanks both for help clearing things up!

    1. I'm not sure why I thought characters were plucked from different points in time within 616 (Spider-man was only used as an example, I though I'd seen this on multiple occasions), it certainly clears things up if there is absolutely no repetition between the different zones and it's just non-616 universes.

    2. Not questioning compliance to Doom, or accepting him as king. It's the lack of questioning of "what was there before", meaning before the darkness as well, from that sociopolitical standpoint. I fully understand why people would accept and welcome Doom's control and protection, that makes perfect sense, as does the power structure and hierarchy that was established. I just think it's stretching the imagination quite a bit to believe the people would not question "what was there before the darkness".

    When reading it (this was actually several months ago, may be misremembering some details) it seemed as if people took it for given the world just went from a state of chaos and darkness into the state we see in Secret Wars, without any question or regards for what may have happened before - in fact it seems they understood there was "nothing" before.

    I don't recall mentions of, or people acknowledging, there was a previous universe that was destroyed, evolving like "previous universe --> darkness --> doom world", it seems everyone understood it was just darkness first. That's what I was having trouble wrapping my head around really.
    Trauma is how it was explained to us, why people lost their memories of a past universe. I have to say, I had a lot of trouble accepting this, so maybe someone with experience of major trauma can chip in here. I only have one personal experience I can recount.

    I got an ailment called Sarcoidosis where one day, I just collapsed at work. I was in a sort of semi coma for the next 3 months, sleeping most of my life, until it settled down. Do you think I have any idea of what happened in the 1980's? No. I lost most of it, and I got most of it back by watching what happened on TV. That 3 months out of it, it robbed me of so much information from the 3-4 years before the sickness and 3-4 years of recovery. It's like someone pressed an erase button in my memory.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Bedford UK
    Posts
    4,551

    Default

    Something that may not be immediately obvious about the way Marvel do alternative universes is that they are very often alternative pasts or alternative futures. Time travel in the Marvel Universe is often a process of going to branching reality. There is no attempt to line up universes chronologically as if they all exist chronologically synced. Rather, they seem to intersect thematically in a storytelling sense. So a noir or a renaissance world is logically an earlier time, but that is the moment in that world's history where superheroes emerged and therefore parallel in a more figurative sense.

    If you are looking for a justification for why some universes seem older or in the future on Battleword then it is up to you to bring that justification. Marvel chose realms that highlighted their back catalogue. One possible interpretation would be that time itself varies in universes, or that the incursions could occur in different chronological timespans in different universes. Marvel don't want us to overthink this.

    As to America not existing, the denizens of Battleword are not zombies but they are somewhat muddled. They were ripped from their old planet and made to accept the new reality by mind tricks. Then as the illusion inevitably fell apart Doom was resetting everything, including the people, back to the starting point at approximately 8 year cycles.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-29-2017 at 02:14 AM.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Bedford UK
    Posts
    4,551

    Default

    I don't want to get into the Sue thing all over again. But suffice to say the old and occasionally resurfacing Secret Wars thread has a whole heap of discussion on this issue if you are interested. I will note that Hickman is not the kind of writer that is interested in discussing his work with the audience. He believes the reader should get to interpret the text, and he writes with that in mind. If we get hints of conflicting possibilities they may be deliberate.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Bedford UK
    Posts
    4,551

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Trauma is how it was explained to us, why people lost their memories of a past universe. I have to say, I had a lot of trouble accepting this, so maybe someone with experience of major trauma can chip in here. I only have one personal experience I can recount.

    I got an ailment called Sarcoidosis where one day, I just collapsed at work. I was in a sort of semi coma for the next 3 months, sleeping most of my life, until it settled down. Do you think I have any idea of what happened in the 1980's? No. I lost most of it, and I got most of it back by watching what happened on TV. That 3 months out of it, it robbed me of so much information from the 3-4 years before the sickness and 3-4 years of recovery. It's like someone pressed an erase button in my memory.
    Sorry to hear that. I know of others that have had similar things happen to them, and I know how challenging it can be to everyone concerned.

    I think trauma was just one of those hand waving words thrown in. Hickman wasn't in the business of explaining the ins and outs of the mechanism. He only had limited space to tell the story, and even then he expanded upon it.

  13. #13
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    8,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Something that may not be immediately obvious about the way Marvel do alternative universes is that they are very often alternative pasts or alternative futures. Time travel in the Marvel Universe is often a process of going to branching reality. There is no attempt to line up universes chronologically as if they all exist chronologically synced. Rather, they seem to intersect thematically in a storytelling sense. So a noir or a renaissance world is logically an earlier time, but that is the moment in that world's history where superheroes emerged and therefore parallel in a more figurative sense.

    If you are looking for a justification for why some universes seem older or in the future on Battleword then it is up to you to bring that justification. Marvel chose realms that highlighted their back catalogue. One possible interpretation would be that time itself varies in universes, or that the incursions could occur in different chronological timespans in different universes. Marvel don't want us to overthink this.

    As to America not existing, the denizens of Battleword are not zombies but they are somewhat muddled. They were ripped from their old planet and made to accept the new reality by mind tricks. Then as the illusion inevitably fell apart Doom was resetting everything, including the people, back to the starting point at approximately 8 year cycles.
    Certainly the chronological differences was most pronounced in Old Man Logan world, where years passed beyond the current 616 universe at the time of Secret Wars.

    Do you think that Battleworld was 8 years old, really, or, a shorter time because god Doom reset Battleworld whenever he wanted, JKtheMac?
    Last edited by jackolover; 04-29-2017 at 04:47 AM.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Bedford UK
    Posts
    4,551

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Certainly the chronological differences was most pronounced in Old Man Logan world, where years passed beyond the current 616 universe at the time of Secret Wars.

    Do you think that Battleworld was 8 years old, really, or, a shorter time because god Doom reset Battleworld whenever he wanted, JKtheMac?
    I don't remember the details now, but from memory the resets were not frequent but were implied to have happened many times. I get the impression the world was much older but that the current iteration was about eight years. Would need to revisit the book to confirm my thoughts.

    However, at the time I was working on the theory that Doom was just waiting out a new universe to be born, evolve and reach maturity. I assumed he had a plan other than maintain peace and keep things under control. I was clearly overestimating Doom's desire to do anything other than rule over the remains of the multiverse. I was probably looking for clues that Battleworld was older.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 04-29-2017 at 05:46 AM.

  15. #15
    Newbie Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Thanks all for the responses, it did help add some clarity! Still seeing the point #2 as quite a difficult stretch but, I guess it is what it is : )

    Thanks!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •