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  1. #136
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I had never heard of that theory being referred to as the Great American Novel theory. Seems a bit of a misnomer. Fantastic Four is hardly Gravity's Rainbow. How did it get that name, as opposed to say 'God Emperor Franklin' or 'Lost Boy Franklin', or anything descriptive?

    I don't think Marvel has a status quo anymore. Now it shifts every summer with the main event.

    P.S. God Emperor Franklin would be an excellent event idea. Although Secret Wars is much the same without the thousands of years time frame. Which was another reason I was looking for evidence that there was a cycle of resets on Battleworld. The ending of God Emperor of Dune is one of my favourite sci-fi conclusions.

    On a meta commentary level Hickman's reference to that epic gives us the biggest clue that Secret Wars is all about releasing Marvel from the status quo. God Emperor Doom is a stand-in for rigid editorial control.
    I wish it did, but everything that's happened in the 616 still happened in ANAD. How can it not still be rigid editorial control?

  2. #137
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    understand Hickman had a story to tell, but it sounded like something you could do in a WhatIf?
    A single issue "What if...?" would not have been enough pages to do it right.


    Name one event that has actually stuck in a meaningful way.
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  3. #138
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I wish it did, but everything that's happened in the 616 still happened in ANAD. How can it not still be rigid editorial control?
    What? That can't be a serious question? Everything we are seeing for good or bad is based on the creatives bringing things to the table. The only editorial story in the mix is Legacy.

    And aside from the creatives and the hint that we will get back Reed, legacy seems a huge misstep to me. Legacy numbering is just crazy thinking that will surely get reversed in a year or two, and trying to appease the vaguely disgruntled is never going to work.

    It feels like legacy numbers will mostly be an excuse to celebrate the big numbers. Bendis is happy that Iron Man will get a special big number soon for example.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-19-2017 at 12:26 AM.

  4. #139
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPower View Post
    A single issue "What if...?" would not have been enough pages to do it right.


    Name one event that has actually stuck in a meaningful way.
    I could see a Cosmic Cube achieving ANAD in a single issue.

    Civil War has reach going back to 2006 till now, in my opinion. The change that happened that day in May 2006, is the policy of Homeland Security and the degradation of Super Human authority. Terrorism is sustaining that change in the foreseeable future.

  5. #140
    Spider-Verse Member mattspideyrocks!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    What? That can't be a serious question? Everything we are seeing for good or bad is based on the creatives bringing things to the table. The only editorial story in the mix is Legacy.

    And aside from the creatives and the hint that we will get back Reed, legacy seems a huge misstep to me. Legacy numbering is just crazy thinking that will surely get reversed in a year or two, and trying to appease the vaguely disgruntled is never going to work.

    It feels like legacy numbers will mostly be an excuse to celebrate the big numbers. Bendis is happy that Iron Man will get a special big number soon for example.
    I'd say they'd be celebrating the big numbers regardless of the Legacy initiative. In fact, that's generally what they have done up until this point. I think Legacy is simply Marvel's attempt to capitalize on some of the success DC has seen since they started Rebirth last year and personally, I'm more than alright with that. DC has been knocking it out of the park for a year now with everything I read there and I feel Marvel could potentially see a similar situation if they play it right. Plus, I really want my Amazing Spidey back to the regular numbering. I've always been a nostalgic comic reader who loves the big number on a cover. I'd much rather that than this constant renumbering and revoluming garbage. The current tactics just make everything confusing and annoying.

  6. #141
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    What? That can't be a serious question? Everything we are seeing for good or bad is based on the creatives bringing things to the table. The only editorial story in the mix is Legacy.
    I think that "Legacy" is more a change in direction than a story unto itself. But, semantics aside, I would agree. "Legacy" will give the writers more options about which characters to use. Combined with Marvel putting lower priority on consistency, that just opens up more doors. (There is also the fact that Marvel is planning to go more than a year with no big events.)

    It feels like legacy numbers will mostly be an excuse to celebrate the big numbers. Bendis is happy that Iron Man will get a special big number soon for example.
    I stopped caring about issue numbers (for anything other than ordering purposes) years, actually decades, ago. The only two series that I might have cared about that with were "Action Comics" and "Detective Comics" (which were headed towards the 1000 mark when "Flashpoint" hit). While both have since gone back to legacy numbers, there will forever be an asterisk.


    Civil War has reach going back to 2006 till now, in my opinion. The change that happened that day in May 2006, is the policy of Homeland Security and the degradation of Super Human authority. Terrorism is sustaining that change in the foreseeable future.
    Does anybody really care about "Civil War" at this point? Have any of the significant changes actually stuck? (The answer to both questions is "no".)


    I could see a Cosmic Cube achieving ANAD in a single issue.
    That would be a jumbled, Silver-Age style, mess. (I specified that one issue would not be enough to do it right, not that it could not be done at all.)
    Current pull-file:
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  7. #142
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattspideyrocks! View Post
    I'd say they'd be celebrating the big numbers regardless of the Legacy initiative. In fact, that's generally what they have done up until this point. I think Legacy is simply Marvel's attempt to capitalize on some of the success DC has seen since they started Rebirth last year and personally, I'm more than alright with that. DC has been knocking it out of the park for a year now with everything I read there and I feel Marvel could potentially see a similar situation if they play it right. Plus, I really want my Amazing Spidey back to the regular numbering. I've always been a nostalgic comic reader who loves the big number on a cover. I'd much rather that than this constant renumbering and revoluming garbage. The current tactics just make everything confusing and annoying.
    I just don't see this at all. I don't have much investment in DC anyway, but if I compare a book from before and after Rebirth I can't see a lot of difference. Apart from a couple of key character choices, that were probably always going to happen at some point, it feels like a triumph of marketing over substance, and a cynical effort to pull in older readers that will inevitably abandon them as soon as they try and move forward with their plans. Nostalgia and stasis are not viable in the longer term.

    Legacy is just a handful of one shots and a move to legacy numbering. Those have clearly been stated to be part of the same campaign. Mercifully it looks like the stories are short and have minimal impact on the main books, mostly being time travel stories. Nothing like Rebirth.

    Even Marvel's stated aim is to remind readers that Marvel haven't forgotten the core characters and that they haven't gone away. That is very different to Geoff Johns' 'dark and gritty' spin-doctoring.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-21-2017 at 01:32 AM.

  8. #143
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPower View Post
    Does anybody really care about "Civil War" at this point? Have any of the significant changes actually stuck? (The answer to both questions is "no".)
    I don't think that is true. I think Civil War is seen as a symbol at Marvel. It was hugely successful, and so the business minded wanted to do more of that kind of event, but the writers recognised it was a little bit of a fake-out unless there was meaningful change. Effectively Civil War ends pretty much unresolved, and many things span out of it for the next couple of years. The writers eventually won the argument over how to handle events by wanting meaningful change and for some of those older issues to still be festering away as repressed animosity.

    AvX and Secret Wars are the only two huge events since this shift that we can judge. The significant outcomes for AvX were the death of Xavier, which was still having repercussions in the lead up to Secret Empire, and the shift in Cyclops which was pretty important to a number of X-Men stories and is still being played out in X-Men Blue.

    For Secret Wars it was the change in how time works and the mash up of multiple realities and characters into one universe. It has also launched Doom, the most significant villain in the MU, onto a redemption arc, which will be having repercussions for years to come. T'Challa's status quo has also been significantly changed and we have yet to discover how the First Family will be changed.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-21-2017 at 01:46 AM.

  9. #144
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    Effectively Civil War ends pretty much unresolved, and many things span out of it for the next couple of years. The writers eventually won the argument over how to handle events by wanting meaningful change and for some of those older issues to still be festering away as repressed animosity.
    On the business side, how much has changed? Marvel did events before "Civil War".

    On page, has "Civil War" left much of a mark? Has the status quo (stasis quo) changed much? Who is dead? Who is alive? Has there been any real push for bringing back registration as a plot point?


    For Secret Wars it was the change in how time works and the mash up of multiple realities and characters into one universe. I
    Marvel time has not changed much. The only difference after "Secret Wars" is that the loosely established history was formalized in "the Ultimates". The scenario described by Galactus in that sequence was what Marvel had been doing for years.
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  10. #145
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPower View Post
    On the business side, how much has changed? Marvel did events before "Civil War".

    On page, has "Civil War" left much of a mark? Has the status quo (stasis quo) changed much? Who is dead? Who is alive? Has there been any real push for bringing back registration as a plot point?
    Indeed that is my point. CW was modern in that it was part of an ongoing story progressing from one event to another, but overall not a lot was supposed to hang around in the long term. The writers have since re-emphasised the divisions to make it have longer lasting consequences.



    Marvel time has not changed much. The only difference after "Secret Wars" is that the loosely established history was formalized in "the Ultimates". The scenario described by Galactus in that sequence was what Marvel had been doing for years.
    And now they have an excuse. But it is subtly different it's more like Doctor Who than 616. The diagram is literally wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

    Lots has changed just not all pointed out or highlighted. Now we are starting to see that more characters from the 1610 are around than previously suspected. I suspect some of the characters we think are from the 616 may prove to be combined from both at some point.

  11. #146
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    The time thing was Marvel's informal policy for years. Formalizing it on a page was an interesting visual. But, it really does not change anything. "The past is flexible, it always has been." They only needed the "excuse" because some fans could not simply understand and accept that long-range consistency has not been a priority at Marvel for years.


    How many of the carried over characters from Ultimate are supposed to be literally the same character (with all of the baggage that implies)? The Maker is the only one that is definitively the same guy. (Miles Morales is allegedly the same, but seems pretty baggage-free.) The new son of Wolverine might well just be explained as (yet another) long-lost child of old 616 Wolverine. (Does anybody really want more multiversal jibber-wankery?)
    Last edited by CentralPower; 05-30-2017 at 12:39 PM.
    Current pull-file:
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    -Venom
    -the Vision (Director's Cut)
    -WWE

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  12. #147
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    I was reading the "Prelude to Secret Wars" compilation last night. The FF chapter shows Doom creating his own world (pre-Battleworld). Doom's icon for science resembles Stark's organizational chart for his team of Avengers (from Hickman's run). Just before "Time Runs Out" began, Banner commented that Stark's chart strongly resembled a machine.

    I give Hickman points for trying to carry an idea over several runs, if nothing else.
    Current pull-file:
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    -Venom
    -the Vision (Director's Cut)
    -WWE

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