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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    @darkseidpwns I aprreciate that you like Batman and his villains but maybe that enthusiasm belongs in the Batman forums?
    I would appreciate if you'd actually take the time to understand what people are talking about.
    It started with complaints about non existent Batman/Wonder Woman shipping.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    I would appreciate if you'd actually take the time to understand what people are talking about.
    It started with complaints about non existent Batman/Wonder Woman shipping.
    Yeah and then it was followed up with you talking up Batman's villains, dissing WW's villains and talking about how hypothetical crossovers would be so beneficial to Diana's character. That's what I'm referring to.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 05-12-2017 at 01:17 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Yeah and then it was followed up with you talking up Batman's villains, dissing WW's villains and talking about how hypothetical crossovers would be so beneficial to Diana's character. That's what I'm referring to.
    The villains thing was brought up an element of the shipping angle.
    Didn't diss WW villains, only stated what is true and has been true for decades.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    The villains thing was brought up an element of the shipping angle.
    Didn't diss WW villains, only stated what is true and has been true for decades.
    You find it to be true. Not everyone else does.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    The villains thing was brought up an element of the shipping angle.
    Didn't diss WW villains, only stated what is true and has been true for decades.
    Except it's not true. Wonder Woman having the worst rogues gallery in comics is a BS myth that doesn't really have much bearing when you take into account that several figures from Greek mythology are present in it, which automatically gives her more badass cred than many other heroes. Like her rogues gallery isn't the worst when Firestorm's and Dixon-era Nightwing's still exist, and outside of a handful of villains each, Green Lantern and Aquaman aren't that great either. The only ones superior to her are Batman, Superman (though hers is doing better than his currently IMO), the Flash and Captain Marvel/Shazam. And Batman's is so massive that people forget he's faced some serious clunkers over the years, especially when you factor in the villains facing his various sidekicks and spin off characters.

    I think you and I agree that there are a lot of objectively true things when it comes to the iconic characters of DC and their influence, but I don't think this one is as clear cut as other examples.

  6. #66
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I don't think this moved the story forward, at all, and that's rather disappointing, this late in the game. It's as if it was written, simply to extend Rucka's run, by one issue. It's almost as if this issue was written, by someone, other than Rucka.
    FINALLY! The greatest comic book movie, ever made... The ORIGIN of the GOLDEN AGE WONDER BOY!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Except it's not true. Wonder Woman having the worst rogues gallery in comics is a BS myth that doesn't really have much bearing when you take into account that several figures from Greek mythology are present in it, which automatically gives her more badass cred than many other heroes. Like her rogues gallery isn't the worst when Firestorm's and Dixon-era Nightwing's still exist, and outside of a handful of villains each, Green Lantern and Aquaman aren't that great either. The only ones superior to her are Batman, Superman (though hers is doing better than his currently IMO), the Flash and Captain Marvel/Shazam. And Batman's is so massive that people forget he's faced some serious clunkers over the years, especially when you factor in the villains facing his various sidekicks and spin off characters.

    I think you and I agree that there are a lot of objectively true things when it comes to the iconic characters of DC and their influence, but I don't think this one is as clear cut as other examples.
    The Greek figures are controversial though, there are plenty of fans and writers who dont want the franchise to be myth heavy. Ares is awesome, if there were more like him I'd singing a different tune. But the rest? I mean this is Wonder Woman, you cant compare her to lesser properties. But still GL and AM have Sinestro and Manta as well as Ocean Master ,Atrocitus, Anti-Monitor etc. Nightwing has to be stuck in Batman's shadow, you mentioned Dixon but remember this guy created Bane too. He just gave him to Batman, Pyg also ended up a Batman villain.

    Disagree about Supes, Mxy came back with a bang in Reborn, so did Henshaw in Action Comics, Lex is everywhere, Manchester is coming back with a bang of his own, the Revenge Squad in general, the Eradicator revamp and Mongul is getting attention too. There's also Mr Oz and his endgame.

    Urzkartaga and Poison by Rucka are flops, Cheetah started off interesting but has fizzled out and Cale will never be a thing no matter how much Rucka tries.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    The Greek figures are controversial though, there are plenty of fans and writers who dont want the franchise to be myth heavy. Ares is awesome, if there were more like him I'd singing a different tune. But the rest? I mean this is Wonder Woman, you cant compare her to lesser properties. But still GL and AM have Sinestro and Manta as well as Ocean Master ,Atrocitus, Anti-Monitor etc. Nightwing has to be stuck in Batman's shadow, you mentioned Dixon but remember this guy created Bane too. He just gave him to Batman, Pyg also ended up a Batman villain.

    Disagree about Supes, Mxy came back with a bang in Reborn, so did Henshaw in Action Comics, Lex is everywhere, Manchester is coming back with a bang of his own, the Revenge Squad in general, the Eradicator revamp and Mongul is getting attention too. There's also Mr Oz and his endgame.

    Urzkartaga and Poison by Rucka are flops, Cheetah started off interesting but has fizzled out and Cale will never be a thing no matter how much Rucka tries.
    Urzkartaga was never meant to be anything beyond a starter villain and I fail to see how Poison is a flop. Cale and Cheetah are doing great as far as reviews go. The controversy of the myth villains is moot and they've been used in every run. Adding Circe and Ares, she's got two more better villains than GL and AM and Anti monitor isn't even a GL villain.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 05-13-2017 at 04:06 AM.

  9. #69
    Incredible Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    I'd love to see Batman's rogues gallery go at it with Devastation. How many of them would live after that brutal beating?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Urzkartaga was never meant to be anything beyond a starter villain and I fail to see how Poison is a flop. Cale and Cheetah are doing great as far as reviews go. The controversy of the myth villains is moot and they've been used in every run. Adding Circe and Ares, she's got two more better villains than GL and AM and Anti monitor isn't even a GL villain.

    Still a flop.

    Poison is also a flop, she's just a thug, reboot coming in 3,2,1

    Cheetah WAS received well initially, now she's nothing but a pet

    Cale? lol stop joking.

    AM is a GL villain,his origin is rooted in to GL mythos and neither comes close to Sinestro. If you want to throw random names then Krona, Nekron, Oblivion, Parallax, Nero, all come to mind. Might as well add Hammond and Black Hand too while we're at it. They can atleast claim virtual monopoly over DC cosmic

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    I'd love to see Batman's rogues gallery go at it with Devastation. How many of them would live after that brutal beating?
    They're street level predominately, ofcourse they wont win a fight.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    The Greek figures are controversial though, there are plenty of fans and writers who dont want the franchise to be myth heavy. Ares is awesome, if there were more like him I'd singing a different tune. But the rest? I mean this is Wonder Woman, you cant compare her to lesser properties. But still GL and AM have Sinestro and Manta as well as Ocean Master ,Atrocitus, Anti-Monitor etc. Nightwing has to be stuck in Batman's shadow, you mentioned Dixon but remember this guy created Bane too. He just gave him to Batman, Pyg also ended up a Batman villain.

    Disagree about Supes, Mxy came back with a bang in Reborn, so did Henshaw in Action Comics, Lex is everywhere, Manchester is coming back with a bang of his own, the Revenge Squad in general, the Eradicator revamp and Mongul is getting attention too. There's also Mr Oz and his endgame.

    Urzkartaga and Poison by Rucka are flops, Cheetah started off interesting but has fizzled out and Cale will never be a thing no matter how much Rucka tries.
    So Sinestro, Atrocitus, Black Manta, and Ocean Master. You've netted a whopping four characters from two different properties. And I agree with Agent Z, Anti-Monitor isn't a GL villain considering he's known for being the Big Bad of an event with minimal input from any of the major GLs. He's hardly a great character anyway. I mean, think about how stupid his name is.

    Fans debate how much myth stuff should be present, but it goes without saying that all of us recognize that it's entrenched. She has more than just Ares. His sons, Circe, Eris, Medusa, Ixion, sometimes the likes of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades, Echidna, the Minotaur, etc. So that's a bunch of characters that are automatically more menacing than those featured in even the other properties.

    What I know of Mxy's resurgence is indeed awesome, but I honestly don't give a crap about Henshaw and Manchester. The Revenge Squad looks generic. Mr. Oz will most likely fade away after the events settle down.

    So what if Dixon invented Bane? Doesn't do anything for Nightwing. He gave Nightwing Torque, Brutale, Lady Vic and Stallion. And it seems Seeley is being pressured in some way to bring that stuff back even though it's most likely detrimental to the character. Him bringing back Pyg and Dr. Hurt for Nightwing is a step in the right direction, but who knows if they will ever not be primarily Batman villains that Dick gets to borrow.

    Who determines that Cheetah has fizzled out exactly? That seems like your opinion that you're projecting onto everyone else. Cale has been better regarded here by some than she was in the previous run. Urzkartaga is an accessory to the Cheetah mythos and doesn't need to be that interesting on his own, and Poison's character is so vague that she's hardly beyond salvaging. Plus, there's a little movie coming out at the beginning of next month that she will feature in. I think she's doing fine.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 05-13-2017 at 06:29 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    So Sinestro, Atrocitus, Black Manta, and Ocean Master. You've netted a whopping four characters from two different properties. And I agree with Agent Z, Anti-Monitor isn't a GL villain considering he's known for being the Big Bad of an event with minimal input from any of the major GLs. He's hardly a great character anyway. I mean, think about how stupid his name is.

    So what if Dixon invented Bane? Doesn't do anything for Nightwing. He gave Nightwing Torque, Brutale, Lady Vic and Stallion. And it seems Seeley is being pressured in some way to bring that stuff back even though it's most likely detrimental to the character. Him bringing back Pyg and Dr. Hurt for Nightwing is a step in the right direction, but who knows if they will ever not be primarily Batman villains that Dick gets to borrow.

    Who determines that Cheetah has fizzled out exactly? That seems like your opinion that you're projecting onto everyone else. Cale has been better regarded here by some than she was in the previous run. Urzkartaga is an accessory to the Cheetah mythos and doesn't need to be that interesting on his own, and Poison's character is so vague that she's hardly beyond salvaging. Plus, there's a little movie coming out at the beginning of next month that she will feature in. I think she's doing fine.
    In addition, Ocean Master was only interesting in the Throne of Atlantis comic and he was hardly a villain there.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In addition, Ocean Master was only interesting in the Throne of Atlantis comic and he was hardly a villain there.
    I'd say a step above Anti-Hero, but yeah. Kind of like one Barbara Minerva, right?

    And the event that he was supposed to play a big part in seems to be eternally stuck in Development Hell.

  15. #75
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Let's get this back on track, folks.

    Let the Issue 22 discussion continue!
    Gaelforce
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