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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Twitter definitely serves as a toxic amplifier for trolls in many ways (not saying jwatson is a troll they seem genuine about their concerns) so yeah. Maybe it's just easier to select which comments to reply to and which to ignore there.

    I mean, there's really no upside for a creator to get bogged down into a potentially hugely controversial topic like why don't they show enough racial diversity, and is their background responsible. It's the stuff that can really blow up in their face if they don't handle it just perfectly, it's just super inflammatory.
    Thank you for actually reading my post and noting my concern as it was coming from a genuine place. So often people say that the story must dictate it which in some cases does feel like your concern is being brushed off. I read the run on All New X-Men and Bobby and co built a pretty deep relationship with Idie (who is African) and Evan (who is Egyptian) so it's not exactly like the ) 05 were in a box or stuck in some sort of paradox where only the five of them are together. In a lot of ways it could be seen as the four guys abandoned Idie and evan in their quest to get back with Jean and go do their own thing. Those friendships felt very real to me but I did not even try to dictate the storyline by even bringing them up. I really do enjoy his writing and I am glad some can step beyond the celebrity of a professional and see the message that was trying to be conveyed. Is it possible I misstepped in some places? obviously as it wasn't my intent to make him feel like I was calling into question his personal beliefs. When I step outside I see a variety of people, there is no story behind it, that just is what it is. I don't understand why diversity needs to "make sense" when it just exists.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  2. #152
    Incredible Member Calaigah's Avatar
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    As for your question, Archangel is my favorite character and he lost the old triangle with Scott and Jean, and he looked like a jerk while he lost. It really didn't bother me. Sometimes seeing my favorites not come out on top makes for some good reading in my opinion. I don't always have to see Warren win or look perfect.
    Good one.

    I would've been ok with Scott losing Jean to Logan in the original x-trilogy IF Scott had been written as a competent leader. They instead wrote him as losing Jean AND being a useless chump.

    If Jean chooses Jimmy over Scott, I'll be ok with that since Bunn gets x-lore better than Singer ever will, so even if Jean rejects him, I still think Bunn will write Scott as complex and capable.

  3. #153
    Fantastic Member JarOfFlies1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaubier View Post
    I can say with all honesty that you are one of the best writers the X-Men have, and have had for years now. I am sad that certain individuals make you feel unwelcome or judged here.
    Now I feel even worse

  4. #154
    Incredible Member TheRealWashout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Thank you for actually reading my post and noting my concern as it was coming from a genuine place. So often people say that the story must dictate it which in some cases does feel like your concern is being brushed off. I read the run on All New X-Men and Bobby and co built a pretty deep relationship with Idie (who is African) and Evan (who is Egyptian) so it's not exactly like the ) 05 were in a box or stuck in some sort of paradox where only the five of them are together. In a lot of ways it could be seen as the four guys abandoned Idie and evan in their quest to get back with Jean and go do their own thing. Those friendships felt very real to me but I did not even try to dictate the storyline by even bringing them up. I really do enjoy his writing and I am glad some can step beyond the celebrity of a professional and see the message that was trying to be conveyed. Is it possible I misstepped in some places? obviously as it wasn't my intent to make him feel like I was calling into question his personal beliefs. When I step outside I see a variety of people, there is no story behind it, that just is what it is. I don't understand why diversity needs to "make sense" when it just exists.
    I think you were fine to be honest. You had a genuine concern that you expressed. You were a little misinformed in regards to the past books, but you were willing to listen and learn. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

  5. #155
    Spectacular Member MosSuperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Twitter definitely serves as a toxic amplifier for trolls in many ways (not saying jwatson is a troll they seem genuine about their concerns) so yeah. Maybe it's just easier to select which comments to reply to and which to ignore there.

    I mean, there's really no upside for a creator to get bogged down into a potentially hugely controversial topic like why don't they show enough racial diversity, and is their background responsible. It's the stuff that can really blow up in their face if they don't handle it just perfectly, it's just super inflammatory.
    I had a Twitter account but it's easier for a writer or artist to just focus on just the "I love your work" replies than having a legit conversation. Doesn't help that there's a cap on characters. It's their right who they choose to ignore or engage with on Twitter but the same can be done on any forum.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Thank you for actually reading my post and noting my concern as it was coming from a genuine place. So often people say that the story must dictate it which in some cases does feel like your concern is being brushed off. I read the run on All New X-Men and Bobby and co built a pretty deep relationship with Idie (who is African) and Evan (who is Egyptian) so it's not exactly like the ) 05 were in a box or stuck in some sort of paradox where only the five of them are together. In a lot of ways it could be seen as the four guys abandoned Idie and evan in their quest to get back with Jean and go do their own thing. Those friendships felt very real to me but I did not even try to dictate the storyline by even bringing them up. I really do enjoy his writing and I am glad some can step beyond the celebrity of a professional and see the message that was trying to be conveyed. Is it possible I misstepped in some places? obviously as it wasn't my intent to make him feel like I was calling into question his personal beliefs. When I step outside I see a variety of people, there is no story behind it, that just is what it is. I don't understand why diversity needs to "make sense" when it just exists.
    He didn't choose these charaters. Editorial told him to use them. The only character that he seemed to have choose was Magneto who is jewish and a holocaust survivor.

    In any case it makes sense that in a X-men book you should think about diversity, but doing it in an artificial way where you just put diverse characters for the sake of them being diverse and nothing else is wrong too.

  7. #157
    Incredible Member Calaigah's Avatar
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    I don't understand why diversity needs to "make sense" when it just exists.
    Because when it doesn't "make sense" (or when the writer is colorblind) it comes off as pandering. And writers who pander end up writing POC as bland and lame (aka Storm in Gold). For example, a show about rich teenagers living in the richest town in Europe doesn't demand that much diversity, whereas a show about every day teens living in NYC does demand lots of diversity. A show I've been digging lately is "Big Little Lies" and that's pretty much all white blond women, but considering the themes of that show it makes sense it doesn't have much diversity.

    Seeing Bunn add MOC like Dust to this book comes off as pandering considering Dust has no relation to time displaced/alternate reality characters, so she'd come off as a token. Adding her and other MOC to Gold makes sense though considering the themes in that book. Gold has MOC showing up but they are of zero importance to the storyline, so it comes off as pandering again. Adding Kymera to Blue though does make sense though with the tone of the book and she can be a significant part of the story moving forward. Another book that demands diversity considering its theme is Gen X and that book seems to be picking MOC that match that theme and play significant roles in that book.

    Sorry you were misunderstood in your questions to Bunn though. :/

  8. #158
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    I'll take a well-written book featuring white, mostly straight people over a questionably written book featuring a multinational cast from across the LBGTQIA spectrum. Not that the last volume's cast reached Runaways or Young Avengers levels of inclusion but what exactly did Idie or Genesis bring to ANXM v2? Nothing apart from being shoehorned in to add diversity and to further the plots of the white, mostly straight people. That's problematic storytelling that simply continues the issues surrounding US minority representation. Any minority character added to the O5 will be there first and foremost to make the team less white and mostly straight. Is that really what representation should be?
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  9. #159
    Incredible Member TheRealWashout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    I'll take a well-written book featuring white, mostly straight people over a questionably written book featuring a multinational cast from across the LBGTQIA spectrum. Not that the last volume's cast reached Runaways or Young Avengers levels of inclusion but what exactly did Idie or Genesis bring to ANXM v2? Nothing apart from being shoehorned in to add diversity and to further the plots of the white, mostly straight people. That's problematic storytelling that simply continues the issues surrounding US minority representation. Any minority character added to the O5 will be there first and foremost to make the team less white and mostly straight. Is that really what representation should be?
    I mean Genesis was a pretty big focus. He even got an entire event arc all to himself. Idie's role in that book was just kind of being there, but Evan was a pretty important character in it.

  10. #160
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Thank you for actually reading my post and noting my concern as it was coming from a genuine place. So often people say that the story must dictate it which in some cases does feel like your concern is being brushed off. I read the run on All New X-Men and Bobby and co built a pretty deep relationship with Idie (who is African) and Evan (who is Egyptian) so it's not exactly like the ) 05 were in a box or stuck in some sort of paradox where only the five of them are together. In a lot of ways it could be seen as the four guys abandoned Idie and evan in their quest to get back with Jean and go do their own thing. Those friendships felt very real to me but I did not even try to dictate the storyline by even bringing them up. I really do enjoy his writing and I am glad some can step beyond the celebrity of a professional and see the message that was trying to be conveyed. Is it possible I misstepped in some places? obviously as it wasn't my intent to make him feel like I was calling into question his personal beliefs. When I step outside I see a variety of people, there is no story behind it, that just is what it is. I don't understand why diversity needs to "make sense" when it just exists.
    I see ur point but I wouldn't sweat it. This is why it's important when books like BP&C come along (which is well written and features mixes of character in terms of diversity you wouldn't normally see together) that we support them. Mainstream Xmen has always been pretty white might I add, which is ironic considering Xmen is supposed to represent the outcasts that society would prefer to see eradicated. If these are the characters editorial want stories told they have that right. But if you want diversity those books are there. If marvel or any publisher see these books thrive and do well, these companies will invest more in including them.

  11. #161
    Fantastic Member MeloDet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JarOfFlies1 View Post
    I just saw this one.

    My bad for type casting all Scott fans being worried about the triangle. I have seen quite a few posts about how this will make Scott look bad or reduce Scott's role in the triangle to what it was in the movies.

    As for your question, Archangel is my favorite character and he lost the old triangle with Scott and Jean, and he looked like a jerk while he lost. It really didn't bother me. Sometimes seeing my favorites not come out on top makes for some good reading in my opinion. I don't always have to see Warren win or look perfect.
    Fair point! I'm cool with seeing my favorites lose too, but I just don't want them to look like idiots doing it. Obviously characters flaws are necessary for any good character, I just suppose that there are certain flaws I can appreciate more than others, and some that make me dislike the character presenting them. The lack of self-respect required to keep pining after someone that has chosen someone else/rejected the character/otherwise stringing them along is just one flaw I find to be particularly grating.

    My issue has never really been whether or not Scott wins or loses the triangle, but that the triangle itself will diminish the characters of those involved. Whether they come out as clingy/cold/assholish. What I suppose it depends on is how deep the love triangle actually goes. For example with Jean/Warren/Scott (from what little I've read), it never really seemed that serious. Both in regards to the tone of the book and the depths of the emotions involved. Where love triangles truly become terrible in my mind, is when we are expected to believe that the characters involved actually love one another. The best example would probably be Arthurian legend actually, since I've never actually seen that done well (when it's actually been a triangle at least) and I've seen some great authors try. If the stories treats it like it's no big deal (whether because the characters are supposed to be immature teenagers, or because the book is just lighter) then it's not as much of an issue.

    Edit: It also depends how long the triangle lasts too. I can deal with Scott being a little bit of an idiot/having difficulty moving on for a short while if he learns from it quickly and moves on as a character.
    Last edited by MeloDet; 05-12-2017 at 02:14 PM.

  12. #162
    Kurtty Fan Slicknickshady's Avatar
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    So, what did i miss? lol.

    I told Bunn on twitter how much i love interacting with him on these boards. Same some ran him off. The diversity convo is such a joke.

    I am a hardcore liberal LGBTQ supporter who loves POC and im saying it's a joke. People want to turn everybody into something they are not on twitter. How many fights have i gotten into with people who want Kamala Khan to be a lesbian? I mean seriously. She likes guys! Deal with it.

  13. #163
    Incredible Member TheRealWashout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slicknickshady View Post
    So, what did i miss? lol.

    I told Bunn on twitter how much i love interacting with him on these boards. Same some ran him off. The diversity convo is such a joke.

    I am a hardcore liberal LGBTQ supporter who loves POC and im saying it's a joke. People want to turn everybody into something they are not on twitter. How many fights have i gotten into with people who want Kamala Khan to be a lesbian? I mean seriously. She likes guys! Deal with it.
    To be honest, I love Bunn and will continue to read his books, but I don't think he handled this well. No one was really disrespectful to him, and he came across as very defensive rather than empathetic. Challenging writers on diversity should be a good thing; they don't necessarily have to listen, but there's nothing wrong with asking for more.

  14. #164
    Fantastic Member JarOfFlies1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeloDet View Post
    Fair point! I'm cool with seeing my favorites lose too, but I just don't want them to look like idiots doing it. Obviously characters flaws are necessary for any good character, I just suppose that there are certain flaws I can appreciate more than others, and some that make me dislike the character presenting them. The lack of self-respect required to keep pining after someone that has chosen someone else/rejected the character/otherwise stringing them along is just one flaw I find to be particularly grating.

    My issue has never really been whether or not Scott wins or loses the triangle, but that the triangle itself will diminish the characters of those involved. Whether they come out as clingy/cold/assholish. What I suppose it depends on is how deep the love triangle actually goes. For example with Jean/Warren/Scott (from what little I've read), it never really seemed that serious. Both in regards to the tone of the book and the depths of the emotions involved. Where love triangles truly become terrible in my mind, is when we are expected to believe that the characters involved actually love one another. The best example would probably be Arthurian legend actually, since I've never actually seen that done well (when it's actually been a triangle at least) and I've seen some great authors try. If the stories treats it like it's no big deal (whether because the characters are supposed to be immature teenagers, or because the book is just lighter) then it's not as much of an issue.
    Ya I get what you are saying about how sometimes the triangle can make one character look overly bad. The Colossus Kitty thing is bad in my opinion. I just usually don't mind the traits that come from the triangle as they usually add to the character for good or for bad. It can open new stories for the winners and the loser. I think Beast is a little more interesting for how he is handling Jean's rejection. Just my opinion.

    I wont add any more as to who I think will win or loses this triangle (whoever it involves) because I'm afraid I insulted Mr. Bunn with my speculation.

  15. #165
    Fantastic Member JarOfFlies1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slicknickshady View Post
    So, what did i miss? lol.

    I told Bunn on twitter how much i love interacting with him on these boards. Same some ran him off. The diversity convo is such a joke.

    I am a hardcore liberal LGBTQ supporter who loves POC and im saying it's a joke. People want to turn everybody into something they are not on twitter. How many fights have i gotten into with people who want Kamala Khan to be a lesbian? I mean seriously. She likes guys! Deal with it.
    I know what LGBT means but could someone tell me what LGBTQ means. I don't want to offend anyone with my ignorance.

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