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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatKungLao View Post
    Well, it would be much easier to do with Steve Rogers. At the beginning of every issue since Captain America: Steve Rogers #2 it is explained that his reality, his memories were twisted/altered by Cosmic Cube, so his current actions aren't his own, but of Hydra's version of Cap. Readers are constantly reminded that current Steve Rogers is a not a real version of the character.
    I (the reader) might know that, but if at the end of the day Rick Jones is still dead then my question is how the rest of the Marvel U and Steve himself view it. Do Rick's friends go "Steve it wasn't you. We have absolutely no resentment of you for what the Captain Hydra did"? Does Cap go "Hmph, Glad that's over. Too bad Rick is dead but I'm 100% back and can be trusted again"? Or is everyone now going to always hold a secret suspicion that at any minute some one could revert Cap back so he'll never again be the hero EVERYONE trusts implicitly?

    For me there simply is no right answer to that. I want to trust Cap 100%, but am bothered that anyone in the Marvel U would. I know that odds are that after Cap returns we go back to the status quo (has happened a dozen times before), but for me It'd turn me off reading for the forseeable future. And it would do the same with Superman.

  2. #17
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    I (the reader) might know that, but if at the end of the day Rick Jones is still dead then my question is how the rest of the Marvel U and Steve himself view it. Do Rick's friends go "Steve it wasn't you. We have absolutely no resentment of you for what the Captain Hydra did"? Does Cap go "Hmph, Glad that's over. Too bad Rick is dead but I'm 100% back and can be trusted again"? Or is everyone now going to always hold a secret suspicion that at any minute some one could revert Cap back so he'll never again be the hero EVERYONE trusts implicitly?

    For me there simply is no right answer to that. I want to trust Cap 100%, but am bothered that anyone in the Marvel U would. I know that odds are that after Cap returns we go back to the status quo (has happened a dozen times before), but for me It'd turn me off reading for the forseeable future. And it would do the same with Superman.
    I think it just would mean that everyone is vulnerable. As for the outcome of the story, especially since it is said that Marvel universe will never be the same again after Secret Empire, I'm actually confused what the end goal might be. Returning Rick would nulify the meaning of his death, but if he stays alive, it will change Steve forever just like all other actions he made under influence of Kobik.

  3. #18
    Incredible Member Grim Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poroto678 View Post
    Could you elaborate why?

    I mean this in the most respectful way and purely cuz i wanna understand why fans are so pissed. I asked this question here cuz I'm only a casual Marvel reader and I don't know much about its history.
    Because stories like that paint Superman as an emotionally fragile wreck who is ready to snap when something bad happens to him. How many regular people lose a loved one, grieve and then find the strength to move on with their lives? A helluva lot of regular people do that, but these alternate universe Supermen can't seem to find that strength and I just don't buy it.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Ghost View Post
    Because stories like that paint Superman as an emotionally fragile wreck who is ready to snap when something bad happens to him. How many regular people lose a loved one, grieve and then find the strength to move on with their lives? A helluva lot of regular people do that, but these alternate universe Supermen can't seem to find that strength and I just don't buy it.
    Basically this. Plus, Injustice doesn't really do anything new IMO. I feel like many of the key elements of the story were directly lifted from preexisting Superman stories. The standout aspect of Injustice is that it was a comic supporting a video game that WB pushed hard. If people like it in general, good for them, but as far as a Superman story goes it's total rubbish.

    With all that said, if Superman created a secret empire, I think I'd be more interested if they did something completely different. This time around, Batman should lead a team of rebels who eventually topple the regime.

    J/k

    I would make it so that Superman did create an empire that lasted for a few generations. I would explore one of several avenues:

    1) It was a robust, popular empire, but then when he wanted to step down, a bunch of his nitwit, sycophant lackeys all tried to usurp power, and then Superman would have to come back and fix the mess.

    2) The Empire lasted several generations, as above, but then the descendants of the villains wanted revenge and tried to topple it. Would they succeed? I don't know, haven't thought that far ahead.

    3) This is my personal favorite suggestion: the world begged Superman to become supreme leader, and he reluctantly accepted it, but in the end it became a tedious grind of daily bureaucratic meetings and nothing ever got done because none of the sub-leaders were willing to compromise and made demand after demand. So Superman just says eff this, tells Batman to take over, and Batman hangs himself because the job is that awful.

    J/K with that last sentence.

  5. #20
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    I agree with earlier posts that we saw this in King of the World, and I think we saw similar beats in the Day of the Krypton Man story. I also agree the positive version is in the President Superman story in Action Comics Annual #3.

    Injustice is graphic murder porn starring the DC Universe. The faster it goes away, the better.

  6. #21
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    Well going by Secret Empire being altered reality, I guess Supes would have to be altered too. Maybe the Kents don't raise him? Or they get changed into criminals?

  7. #22
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Well going by Secret Empire being altered reality, I guess Supes would have to be altered too. Maybe the Kents don't raise him?
    Superman/Batman: Absolute Power.

  8. #23
    Mighty Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poroto678 View Post
    Hey guys.

    We know how many people are freaking out because Cap turned Hydra. Comics burning, twitter rampages and quite a lot of bitchin' on the internet.
    It seems fiction affects their lives way more than reality...
    Personally I don't see the big deal and I'm quite enjoying Secret Empire.

    anyway... Superman went all fascist in Injustice and people loved it (at least where I am from).

    How do you think people would react if Supes went all Secret Emperor within the MAIN DCU continuity?
    Sometimes people actually care about the characters and what they represent, and they feel hurt when the comics betray that.

    Anyways, Injustice was a clunky fighter with a terrible story (and even worse costume designs)

  9. #24
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    I think King of the World was the best example. Superman Rex is still, you know, Superman. He wants to help people. He just wants to help them too much. He becomes obsessed with saving everyone, and then obsessed with controlling everyone and everything. He's a good guy, just a distantly cold one who stops caring for humanity as individuals and starting to care about humanity more in the abstract. He only steps into straight opressor when Dominus convinces him to take-over the world and kill all world leaders, and Lois pulls him back at the last moment.

    Red Son is very similar, actually, minus the mind control and conquest. He can take the world any moment he feels like - but he doesn't. He wants to win the ideological fight, not the fist-cuffs.


    Overman is similar, but I think his behavior is ultimately deplorable when he decides to let the Freedom Fighters, who receive help from the Sivannas and the Gentry and are (justifiably) angry radicals, start causing widespread destruction and death. Yes Overman, your society is built on a mountain of corpses. No Overman, its not your fault. There's no reason to let everyone die, rather than, I don't know, take your society down with minimum casualties, bring back a semblance of freedom and democracy (also order, order is good), then either fade into the background or bolt.

    (then again, Overman is a sad operatic figure and Mastermen is about his downfall)


    I can totally see an alternate/future Superman being pretty much the DCU's equivalent of the God-Emperor of Man, ruling and directing humanity from the shadows, or being a immensely powerful and virtuous ruler, not because he likes ruling over everyone, but because its the thing to do, with his future relatives/clones being his "Primarchs".


    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    You'd get pretty much Injustice, though I guess if we're being accurate to the story, at least Superman could use brainwashing as an excuse rather then just turning into a genuine bad guy...

    Though, frankly, I could see Batman going all "Secret Empire" on the world before I see Superman doing it, and I love Batman.
    Agreed. Bruce has transcended his "Bat-Jerk" phase of the middle 2000s, but we're talking about someone who builds a orbital satellite that can see everything, then plays a hand in part of the population being sleeper metahuman assassins... just in case.

    I can see Bruce having his own "How to Take Over The City/Country/World" manuals and guides somewhere in the Bat-Cave. After all, if he can figure out how to do, someone else can, too.

    Bruce pretty much takes over Gotham in Kingdom Come and TDKR.

  10. #25
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poroto678 View Post
    anyway... Superman went all fascist in Injustice and people loved it (at least where I am from).
    The problem with Injustice is that its premise depends on Superman acting horrifically out of character. Regime Superman is a paranoid, childish, child-murdering lunatic who used to be a good guy until he had "one bad day" (a cliche the Joker is famous for using to describe his descent into madness, the point of it being that one bad day isn't enough to do that to someone). Superman isn't only moral because his life is going well. Ending Battle is an example of a story where Superman thinks Lois is dead, briefly considers taking violent revenge, and then deciding "nah, that wouldn't help".

    Even more importantly though, there are stories where Superman takes over the world which handle the topic much better than Injustice.[i]Superman the Animated Series[i]'s episode Brave New Metropolis probably bears the most superficial similarities to Injustice, as Lois is killed by criminals and then Superman makes a pact with Luthor to turn Metropolis into a police state- but when Lois-Prime shows him that Luthor's brutal cops treat the citizens of Metropolis like crap, he turns on Luthor and re-dedicates himself to freedom over security. In A Better World from the Justice League cartoon, Superman and the Justice Lords also take over the world, but it's implied that it was only after President Luthor almost blew up the world, and Lois is still alive and kicking, and mad as hell at Superman, too!

    Then we get into the really different alternate universes. In Superman: Red Son, Superman takes decades of subtle moral decay and outside influence to go from a heroic young communist idealist to a dictator who lobotomizes dissidents. It features one of the most brutal Supermen ever, but he still remains sympathetic throughout because he genuinely wants to do the right thing- and because when Luthor forcibly shows him the error of his ways, he immediately owns up to his errors. Also, it's a truly great Superman story and if you haven't read it yet go do so now. Then we've got Master Men from Morrison's Multiversity, which features a Nazi Kal-El called "Overman" who was literally raised by Hitler and yet his guilt over the Holocaust he couldn't stop and the utopia he built on the corpses haunts him constantly!

    In all of these cases, Superman's morality shines through at least in a limited way. In Injustice he's such a horrific monster that the tie-in comic writer literally went back into his childhood and changed it so that his parents were terrified of him and Jor-El's hologram begged forgiveness for unleashing such a creature on an unsuspecting world.


    I don't read Captain America though I've heard good things about the Hydra arc. I don't think Superman would do well copying that act though, even if it was well written.

    Ha- I do want to add this though: I didn't know the Captain America arc was called "Secret Empire", and the only use of that term I'm familiar with is through the obscure-as-hell 1940s Superman radio show villain The Yellow Mask, who claims that he's conquering the world with his Secret Empire. I didn't think that's what you were talking about, but from the thread title I couldn't imagine anything else!
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  11. #26
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Oh boy, if you only you guys saw what blasphemy of an ending Injustice 2 story mode has... Secret Empire would look so much less of a problem.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    Sometimes people actually care about the characters and what they represent, and they feel hurt when the comics betray that.

    Anyways, Injustice was a clunky fighter with a terrible story (and even worse costume designs)
    Oh come on, you don't like the designs from the people who continually can't compete with Capcom?

  13. #28
    BACK FROM THE BLEED Atomic Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Ghost View Post
    Because stories like that paint Superman as an emotionally fragile wreck who is ready to snap when something bad happens to him. How many regular people lose a loved one, grieve and then find the strength to move on with their lives? A helluva lot of regular people do that, but these alternate universe Supermen can't seem to find that strength and I just don't buy it.
    Agree completely. Here's a similar example in the real world: relatives of those killed by Dylan Roof actually said they forgave him and were praying for him. It is possible for people to be forgiving in the face of unimaginable tragedy and horror, yet people like Hack Snyder and the creators of Injustice think it's more "realistic" and "compelling" to go with the negative take. Superman is about being better than we are, an aspirational and inspirational character. If I want to see a story about someone wracked with guilt over the loss of loved ones who then uses lethal force on criminals, I'll read Punisher.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatKungLao View Post
    Oh boy, if you only you guys saw what blasphemy of an ending Injustice 2 story mode has... Secret Empire would look so much less of a problem.
    I can only imagine. Any hints?

  15. #30
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    I don't see the point in taking a character and stripping away their personality, morality, and values and saying it's still a story about that character.

    That's like cake, you don't purposely burn your cake and stomp on it to show the difference between good cake and bad cake. You just make good cake.

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