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  1. #76
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    I think we've all realized that T'Challa being an Avenger makes no sense. The Ultimates is a much better fit for him.
    But he's fun on The Avengers. I've missed him being on an official Avengers team (unless you do count Ultimates as an Avengers group)...

    But I hear he really doesn't do much on the Ultimates anyways? At least compared to Adam and Monica (and Galactus )?

    I wish he had Spidey's place on the current Avengers team, honestly. Waid would probably do more with T'Challa, and write him better, then he does Peter.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Assuming that's even true, and I'm not convinced it is, I doubt it's because of money issues. A more likely cause would be simple creative differences. Maybe some creators feel underappreciated by Marvel, or they were getting too much interference from editorial, or they're fed up with Marvel's market over-saturation making it that much more difficult to sustain a title that isn't Spider-Man or Deadpool. Or any number of other complaints.

    Regardless, my point remains: Dark Horse can afford lower sales than Marvel, because Dark Horse gives lower page rates than Marvel. What works for the other publishers won't necessarily work for Marvel. Of course Marvel pays attention to what other publishers do, but trying to argue that Marvel can afford a title with sales under 10 000 because Jem & the Holograms has sales under 10 000 is silly. It's trying to make a 1:1 comparison that fails to consider other factors.
    I'm not saying Marvel can right now. I'm saying for the future as the direct market shrinks they will have to expect more and more of their books selling at sub 20K. If they dont do something about their bloated overhead, then they will only be able to support a lineup of maybe 30 books at most in their main universe.
    Last edited by Punjabi_Hitman; 05-15-2017 at 10:08 PM.

  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punjabi_Hitman View Post
    I'm not saying Marvel can right now. I'm saying for the future as the direct market shrinks they will have to expect more and more of their books selling at sub 20K. If they dont do something about their bloated overhead, then they will only be able to support a lineup of maybe 30 books at most in their main universe.
    I don't know that it'll ever get that bad. Marvel definitely needs to be putting a lot more work into reaching other markets. Graphic novels actually saw an increase in sales last year, one of the few areas of the book market that did see an increase. So the overall comic book industry is doing well. Marvel just needs to make sure they can pick up their sales outside the direct market. And since readers don't have access to any of the actual sales data, we honestly have no idea how well any book is doing.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member rui no onna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punjabi_Hitman View Post
    I'm not saying Marvel can right now. I'm saying for the future as the direct market shrinks they will have to expect more and more of their books selling at sub 20K. If they dont do something about their bloated overhead, then they will only be able to support a lineup of maybe 30 books at most in their main universe.
    That may not be a bad thing. DC has, what, 32 main DCU ongoing series right now? Young Animal is kinda part of the DCU but there's a certain degree of separation. I expect the upcoming Dark Matter books will be kinda similar.

    Honestly, I wish Marvel would just put experimental titles under a separate imprint with lower sales bars for single issues and not subject them to wallet-sucking mega events/xovers. Either that or go digital first for serialization and then straight to trades. And just freakin' solicit them as minis with a set number of issues. At this point, everyone expects non-Marvel A-List books to be minis anyway. At least by soliciting as a mini, you don't also lose sales from people who actually like minis but are unwilling to make a commitment to books with an unknown number of issues.

    Marvel says minis don't sell but the 4-issue Deadpool Kills the Marvel Universe is their bestselling trade (excepting movie related GNs for the year). Iirc, it sells ~30K+ copies every year via book channel alone.
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  5. #80
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But he's fun on The Avengers. I've missed him being on an official Avengers team (unless you do count Ultimates as an Avengers group)...

    But I hear he really doesn't do much on the Ultimates anyways? At least compared to Adam and Monica (and Galactus )?

    I wish he had Spidey's place on the current Avengers team, honestly. Waid would probably do more with T'Challa, and write him better, then he does Peter.
    It doesn't make sense in that the Avengers are North American sanctioned. The Ultimates is/was an actual international thing.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Maybe. Maybe not. Bendis' name wasn't enough to sell Moon Knight or Spider-Woman. Coates isn't exactly some no-name guy - he's a best-selling author. Frankly, there are probably more people who know Coates' name than Bendis'. Or Hickman or Snyder.

    I also hate hate hate hate hate hate that the solution for better sales is always - ALWAYS AND FOREVER AND IN EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE ANYONE WILL EVER COME UP WITH UNTIL THE GODDAMN END OF TIME - "get a white dude on it." Every time. In every single conversation about how to get a book better sales, or even just how to improve its quality, the answer so many people come up with is always "get a white dude on it." How do you raise Black Panther's profile? White dude! How do you boost Captain Marvel's sales? White dude! How do you improve the quality of America? White dude! White dudes are the one-size-fits-all solution to the problems faced by books with female and minority leads. Female and minority writers don't get to write the A-list titles, because "they haven't proven themselves." And then people also want to take away the books that would give them a chance to prove themselves, because they think that slapping a white dude's name on the cover will get those titles better sales.

    You want a white guy to write Black Panther's solo?

    Attachment 49421

    I want Coates on Black Panther. I want Yona Harvey on a Storm solo. I want Kate Leth on a Spider-Man title. I want Nilah Magruder on Captain America. To hell with the same white dudes writing every goddamn book, as though they're the only ones whose voices actually matter and deserve to be heard. Give us diverse creators, and give them books that have certain levels of built-in sales.
    Dude, step off your soapbox.

    I wasn't even thinking color. I was simply thinking writer. Hickman and Snyder are top guys, that will bring more eyes to BP. Yeah, they're white, but that's not why I picked them.

    White people are the majority in the US, so I'm kinda used to them being most of the popular writers, and artists. No reason to hate.

    I don't care what the race is, as long as it's good. IMO, WoW had a poor bias as all hell writer in Gay, and The Crew was planned very poorly (showing that Coates has a lot to learn). Hell, as good as the solo has been, you can hardly call it a BP book, when he's literally a 3rd of the plot.

    That could be why he's not getting the recognition. There's also the fact that he's got no iconic, or well-known, villains. The Doomwar wasn't just him versus Doom. Snyder doing a Court of Owls for BP could be cool for the character.

    However, I too, want diversity in the industry, but Marvel was being too heavy handed with it; lacking subtlety and execution, basically. That turns people off.

    I'm black, btw, before you make any assumptions.
    Last edited by TooFlyToFail; 05-16-2017 at 02:33 AM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    I don't know that it'll ever get that bad. Marvel definitely needs to be putting a lot more work into reaching other markets. Graphic novels actually saw an increase in sales last year, one of the few areas of the book market that did see an increase. So the overall comic book industry is doing well. Marvel just needs to make sure they can pick up their sales outside the direct market. And since readers don't have access to any of the actual sales data, we honestly have no idea how well any book is doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by rui no onna View Post
    That may not be a bad thing. DC has, what, 32 main DCU ongoing series right now? Young Animal is kinda part of the DCU but there's a certain degree of separation. I expect the upcoming Dark Matter books will be kinda similar.

    Honestly, I wish Marvel would just put experimental titles under a separate imprint with lower sales bars for single issues and not subject them to wallet-sucking mega events/xovers. Either that or go digital first for serialization and then straight to trades. And just freakin' solicit them as minis with a set number of issues. At this point, everyone expects non-Marvel A-List books to be minis anyway. At least by soliciting as a mini, you don't also lose sales from people who actually like minis but are unwilling to make a commitment to books with an unknown number of issues.

    Marvel says minis don't sell but the 4-issue Deadpool Kills the Marvel Universe is their bestselling trade (excepting movie related GNs for the year). Iirc, it sells ~30K+ copies every year via book channel alone.
    It may not be a bad thing for the general audience, but if you're like me who tends to invest more in diverse character books these days, it does not bode well. If we take a look at DC's sales right now, the only POC book doing decent is the Green Lanterns book. Cyborg, New Superman, and Blue Beetle, they are doing less than 14K in sales. That's only 4 books. Once those go, there's only 1 POC book out of 30 books. Right now does DC bother trying to make a team strictly full of POC characters that's not just one race?

    If Marvel goes down to 30 books, what ratio can be POC characters before your fanbase starts arguing SJW agendas and stores stop ordering those books. If there's only 30 books being printed, do we get books like Ultimates? Does Marvel even bother trying out The Crew? 10 of those books will end up being X-men related. Now you only have 20 for the rest of the universe.
    Last edited by Punjabi_Hitman; 05-16-2017 at 02:54 AM.

  8. #83
    Incredible Member Lord Morph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Maybe. Maybe not. Bendis' name wasn't enough to sell Moon Knight or Spider-Woman. Coates isn't exactly some no-name guy - he's a best-selling author. Frankly, there are probably more people who know Coates' name than Bendis'. Or Hickman or Snyder.

    I also hate hate hate hate hate hate that the solution for better sales is always - ALWAYS AND FOREVER AND IN EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE ANYONE WILL EVER COME UP WITH UNTIL THE GODDAMN END OF TIME - "get a white dude on it." Every time. In every single conversation about how to get a book better sales, or even just how to improve its quality, the answer so many people come up with is always "get a white dude on it." How do you raise Black Panther's profile? White dude! How do you boost Captain Marvel's sales? White dude! How do you improve the quality of America? White dude! White dudes are the one-size-fits-all solution to the problems faced by books with female and minority leads. Female and minority writers don't get to write the A-list titles, because "they haven't proven themselves." And then people also want to take away the books that would give them a chance to prove themselves, because they think that slapping a white dude's name on the cover will get those titles better sales.

    You want a white guy to write Black Panther's solo?

    Attachment 49421

    I want Coates on Black Panther. I want Yona Harvey on a Storm solo. I want Kate Leth on a Spider-Man title. I want Nilah Magruder on Captain America. To hell with the same white dudes writing every goddamn book, as though they're the only ones whose voices actually matter and deserve to be heard. Give us diverse creators, and give them books that have certain levels of built-in sales.
    Coates had his chance and he screwed up. I want him off. You don't regulate the lead character to supporting and make him the least interesting character in the book. I would say Coates has hurt more than helped. I know a lot of people have gotten bored with the run and dropped it.

    I don't really care who they get for Black Panther in terms of race. I just want someone who would do well by the character and his world.

  9. #84
    Incredible Member Lord Morph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Dude, step off your soapbox.

    I wasn't even thinking color. I was simply thinking writer. Hickman and Snyder are top guys, that will bring more eyes to BP. Yeah, they're white, but that's not why I picked them.

    White people are the majority in the US, so I'm kinda used to them being most of the popular writers, and artists. No reason to hate.

    I don't care what the race is, as long as it's good. IMO, WoW had a poor bias as all hell writer in Gay, and The Crew was planned very poorly (showing that Coates has a lot to learn). Hell, as good as the solo has been, you can hardly call it a BP book, when he's literally a 3rd of the plot.

    That could be why he's not getting the recognition. There's also the fact that he's got no iconic, or well-known, villains. The Doomwar wasn't just him versus Doom. Snyder doing a Court of Owls for BP could be cool for the character.

    However, I too, want diversity in the industry, but Marvel was being too heavy handed with it; lacking subtlety and execution, basically. That turns people off.

    I'm black, btw, before you make any assumptions.
    It does tend to rub a lot(not all) of white readership the wrong way mostly.

    Are you talking about the replacing of classic heroes or the inclusion of diverse characters in general? How do you think they should have done it?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Morph View Post
    Coates had his chance and he screwed up. I want him off. You don't regulate the lead character to supporting and make him the least interesting character in the book. I would say Coates has hurt more than helped. I know a lot of people have gotten bored with the run and dropped it.

    I don't really care who they get for Black Panther in terms of race. I just want someone who would do well by the character and his world.
    Well, I love Coates on BP and am happy to see him stay. I disagree that he's pushed T'Challa aside and made him "the least interesting character in the book." I like that Coates has opened up T'Challa's world and given him more complex challenges. But as the main BP book continues to sell well, I'm not worried about Coates stepping down any time soon.

    As for the spin-offs, they just didn't catch on. Or there wasn't much demand for them in the first place. Who knows? But I'm glad that Marvel took a shot on them. I definitely don't want to see Marvel slim down their line. More titles means more diversity. Yes, it also means that some titles won't make it in a competitive marketplace but I'd rather a short run of an interesting book than have it not exist at all. A title doesn't have to last forever for it to be worth doing. Some of my favorite runs were cut short after a handful of issues - everything from Wolfman and Colan's Night Force to Dan Slott's Thing solo. While I obviously would've wanted to see those books continue I'm just grateful that they got the issues that they did.

    And even if Marvel was putting out less books, it still doesn't mean that a book like The Crew would've found an audience. If there's a real desire for something, fans will find a way to squeeze it into their budget. If that desire isn't there, they won't.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punjabi_Hitman View Post
    Yet right now DC has a deeper talent pool than Marvel and Marvel is bleeding talent faster than any other publisher. Why is that?
    I'm not seeing the deep talent pool at DC. Not to slight the people who work there as some of them are very talented, of course, but there's not an abundance of writers and artists that I would say match or exceed who Marvel has. I mean, to each their own but I'll happily take Marvel's current line-up of creators over DC's.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cykewasright View Post
    Wow at least they let me know it was cancelled now before I bought more issues dang.
    If you're reading and enjoying the book, why not continue to read it and finish the story? Dropping it at this point - unless you just didn't like it - makes no sense.

    I dug the first two issues and will happily get the rest of the run knowing that the story will be completed.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I'm not seeing the deep talent pool at DC. Not to slight the people who work there as some of them are very talented, of course, but there's not an abundance of writers and artists that I would say match or exceed who Marvel has. I mean, to each their own but I'll happily take Marvel's current line-up of creators over DC's.
    well you have snyder, tynion, king is killing it on batman, williamson, johns will be writing a mini, tomasi and jurgens have made the superman books excellent again, ellis is on wildstorm. i think that's a pretty good crew. Marvel has bendis, who i personally don't like, bunn is good, but i hate the cast of x-men blue and nick spencer, who many people currently hate. i think dc is in fine shape

  14. #89

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    I swear Marvel doesn't have a clue. I'm hanging on by a thread.
    Back from the Phantom Zone... but for how long?

    Clearly, Carol Danvers has taken the expression "man up" a little too seriously.


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  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Was going to pick this up, but put it back down after reading the first issue in the store. Surprised to see it cancelled so fast. Lack of promotion definitely contributed to killing this title (as it does many lost in the wave of titles and events), but I would think the momentum of Coates and Black Panther in the name would've helped a little more than it did.

    However, if you're going to call a book Black Panther and the Crew, at least have Black Panther be in the first issue, if not front and center. That was my problem with it. Second time that's happened and it's starting to get frustrating.

    Guice's art though. Could not have gotten a better artist imo.
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