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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Funny how these kinds of general negativity threads open up whenever the previous one dies a death, continually latching onto the latest recieved wisdom. Shifting the agenda from one attack to another in a cry of "everything was better in my day".
    Let's talk again in another decade or so. Your turn will come.

    I used to be just like you. Got into comics in the 90s and made the same argument against old-timers on Usenet who got into comics during the 70s and 80s. Now, I know exactly how they felt and why. Sooner or later, time will hoist you on your petard.

    It is patent nonsense to suggest Marvel have had decades of stagnation. They climbed out of bankruptcy by narrowing their focus on what sold, and recently, since Axel moved to Marvel they have been the biggest success story in comics.
    Clearly, you don't follow the sales charts. Alonso-era Marvel sells worse than Quesada-era Marvel which sold a fraction of what DeFalco-era Marvel did.

    In my day, selling 100K copies a month in the Direct Market was the cancellation threshold.

    To even suggest that the era Marvel actually died a death and got bought out by a toy company, who had to tighten the belts right down to how many printer cartridges they used in order to keep going was somehow their best era. It was a calamitous period. And the comics were horrid.
    Some were horrid. Others were fantastic.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Let's talk again in another decade or so. Your turn will come.

    I used to be just like you. Got into comics in the 90s and made the same argument against old-timers on Usenet who got into comics during the 70s and 80s. Now, I know exactly how they felt and why.
    In another decade I will be knocking on the door of Sixty. Doesn't stop me believing right now is one of the classic ages for Marvel.

    We have so many great writers right now in comics, Hickman, King, Gillen, Aaron, and we still have Moore putting out interesting work.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-19-2017 at 11:36 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    In another decade I will be knocking on the door of Sixty. Doesn't stop me believing right now is one of the classic ages for Marvel.
    There's nothing wrong with being a slow learner.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    There's nothing wrong with being a slow learner.
    I was standing right there with the guys that read comics in the seventies, you were railing against, saying how the nineties were a travesty of all we held important.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I was standing right there with the guys that read comics in the seventies, you were railing against, saying how the nineties were a travesty of all we held important.
    In my experience, you're an outlier. Most late Silver Age/Bronze Age fans I've interacted with are an order of magnitude more dissatisfied with Marvel's contemporary output than I am. Hence the continuing long-term sales decline.

    Then again, I'm in the States. Maybe you're typical of the British comics fan of that age group.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    In my experience, you're an outlier. Most late Silver Age/Bronze Age fans I've interacted with are an order of magnitude more dissatisfied with Marvel's contemporary output than I am. Hence the continuing long-term sales decline.

    Then again, I'm in the States. Maybe you're typical of the British comics fan of that age group.
    I am pretty sure you are right that I am an outlier. But to be honest, apart from a few Spider-Man and Batman books I wasn't reading US comics in the seventies, I was reading Science Fiction and humour comics, flicking through my dad's old Commando books and reading sixties Dan Dare. Oh and Mad Magazine from the local US airbases.

    Superduperman was my first superhero! No wonder I am odd.

    Plus when you are introduced to visual storytelling techniques by Hergė you get to be quite picky.

    P.S. Legacy numbering? Eat your heart out Marvel and DC, Commando recently reached issue 5000!
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-19-2017 at 12:15 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    In my experience, you're an outlier. Most late Silver Age/Bronze Age fans I've interacted with are an order of magnitude more dissatisfied with Marvel's contemporary output than I am. Hence the continuing long-term sales decline.

    Then again, I'm in the States. Maybe you're typical of the British comics fan of that age group.
    Mid-40's American comic book fan here who was brought up on the Bronze Age and continues to read comics to this day.

    I haven't bought a new Marvel comic since Secret Wars (my personal jumping off point), that said I do have a yearly subscription to Marvel Unlimited (reading mainly 30+ year old comics). The current version of Marvel is simply not for me. Oddly enough I used to be a Marvel Zombie and only read select DC titles. Now my pull list is entirely DC.

    I just don't think Marvel is putting out good comics right now. Of course I'm just one person, from what I read here there are more fans who do like Marvels output and direction just fine. Maybe it's generational or a matter of personal taste, but I don't see Marvel fixing the problem (for me) with Make Mine Marvel.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Yes. As fans get older and the landscape of the MU changes, as it always does, each generation that starts hitting their 30s and 40s and so on begins to feel threatened that it isn't "their" Marvel anymore and that things need to get back to "normal." But there's never a true normal, only what a reader was used to when they started reading. If someone started reading in the '90s, that was "their" Marvel but for many older fans at the time, the company had completely gone off the rails.
    I pretty clearly stated that not finding what Marvel does now to be "my" Marvel was my burden to bear. I don't expect anything to change just because I don't like it, but I am free to look back and remember the old stuff more fondly than the new stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Continuity is not a "nightmare." Continuity has never been perfect and it only gets harder to maintain as years go on (even back when Kurt Busiek was doing his Iron Man run, Tony had no longer become IM during Vietnam - a change to his origin that wasn't explained but was just accepted that, with Vietnam now being so far in the past, Tony couldn't be shown to be that old) but the lines for these characters still connect.
    Currently in Marvel, we have characters from the past that are central figures (O5 X-men in Blue), multiple characters that are from an abandoned alternate universe with the same name as previously established and still active heroes (Spider Man, Kid Wolverine, Old Man Logan), and their have been so many new number ones and relaunches that it is nearly impossible to tell where to start. And I am barely touching on the fact that there are multiple characters with the same name and power running around in different books (Hulk, Captain America, Spider Man, Thor, Iron Man).

    As a newly returned (and quickly re-lapsed) reader, it feels very daunting to crack open these books and figure out where all the pieces fit together anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    And when people complain that the comics are chasing after movie concepts, it's such an easily refuted argument, I don't know why anyone bothers to make it.

    Movie Iron Man: Tony Stark. Comic book Iron Man: Riri Williams, Victor Von Doom. Tony in a coma and only present as an A.I.

    Movie Captain America: Steve Rogers. Comic book Captain America: Hydra Cap and Sam Wilson.

    Movie Thor: Odinson. Comic book Thor: Jane Foster.

    The comics are not "chasing the movies." Are there some overall and similarities? Sure. As there should be. But it's not even close to lining up across the board.
    Iron Man's appearance, both as Iron Man and Tony Stark, very drastically changed to align with the movie version.

    Guardians of the Galaxy as a concept has basically been re-created to line up with the movies.

    Old Man Logan was pulled into the MU both as a replacement Wolverine and because there was an old Logan movie coming out.

    Thor will be losing his hammer and shifting away from his "original" look in Ragnarok. This one, I admit, isn't as fair since the comics technically did it first, but they are created by the same company, sooo....

    To sit there and say that the comics aren't lining up with the movies is crazy. Of course it isn't on every character in every book, but there are some pretty obvious examples with NO other explanation as to why they were done.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    Currently in Marvel, we have characters from the past that are central figures (O5 X-men in Blue), multiple characters that are from an abandoned alternate universe with the same name as previously established and still active heroes (Spider Man, Kid Wolverine, Old Man Logan), and their have been so many new number ones and relaunches that it is nearly impossible to tell where to start. And I am barely touching on the fact that there are multiple characters with the same name and power running around in different books (Hulk, Captain America, Spider Man, Thor, Iron Man).

    As a newly returned (and quickly re-lapsed) reader, it feels very daunting to crack open these books and figure out where all the pieces fit together anymore.
    I think some older fans feel that the MU should have been frozen in time since the last time they were an active reader and resent the fact that if they want to jump back in, they actually have to do a little catching up.

    That said, it's not that complicated. Some people like to act as though the current MU is this impenetrable thing but it's actually fairly simple to grasp. And it's not "impossible to tell where to start." With the internet, it's easier than ever to figure out where to begin if you have an interest in a character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    Iron Man's appearance, both as Iron Man and Tony Stark, very drastically changed to align with the movie version.
    No. Robert Downey Jr.'s Tony look was straight out of the comics. And as for the armor, that's changed so frequently since the character's start that saying anything was done to resemble the movies is a sketchy assertion at best. Tony's IM look has always been in flux.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    Guardians of the Galaxy as a concept has basically been re-created to line up with the movies.
    The first issues of the new volume resemble the movie line-up. But writer Gerry Duggan has said that his Guardians line up will be changing as the book goes on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    Old Man Logan was pulled into the MU both as a replacement Wolverine and because there was an old Logan movie coming out.
    Old Man Logan was initially brought back in the summer of 2015 with Secret Wars, well before Logan was rolling.

    Old Man Logan was a popular incarnation of the character. It makes sense that Marvel would have plans to bring him back, irregardless of whatever was going on in the films.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    Thor will be losing his hammer and shifting away from his "original" look in Ragnarok. This one, I admit, isn't as fair since the comics technically did it first, but they are created by the same company, sooo....
    So the movies are copying the comics and not the other way around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    To sit there and say that the comics aren't lining up with the movies is crazy. Of course it isn't on every character in every book, but there are some pretty obvious examples with NO other explanation as to why they were done.
    In some cases, synergy is obviously involved - like when Spider-Man suddenly had organic webbing in the comics to match up with the Raimi films. But as far as the MCU is involved, the resemblances are generally few and far between.

  10. #70
    Fantastic Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    and their have been so many new number ones and relaunches that it is nearly impossible to tell where to start.
    Right. Go to a comic shop and see iron man 1. Great i'll pick it up but there are 5 issue 2 iron mans? I don't know which one to get. Guess I won't get this series. They make things as confusing as ever for new readers.

  11. #71
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    I left comics during the late 90s. To be fair, nothing really seemed to happen during this time besides bad decisions. Decisions that lead to bankruptcy and the reason we have several different companies holding on to the rights to several different Marvel heroes. I don't think it was normal as much as a weird blackhole. In 2000 I came back to comics, but it was due to Kevin Smith writing on Green Arrow after that I saw JMS writing Spider-Man, I came back til Brand New Day hit. The writers brought me back more so than the art. Quesada did a great job early on reestablishing the characters while creating the Ultimate universe to give new fans a fresh start. However, Joe's love affair with Bush's military fear policies that we got Ultimate's Avengers. While it started out good, it really went downhill. Then we get Civil War which was an excellent story til the ghosts of 9-11 stop Captain America then he gets killed and we are doing major events once every six months for no good reason. I think you have to distinguish the era from pre-Quesada and Quesada era. While I think Joe saw the golden Disney parachute and didn't really care about anything when the deal was made. Even prior to that he helped get Marvel out of bankruptcy and back to being the number one company. Now, the only book that is a top ten seller is Star Wars. A franchise, they have repeatedly shown, they have no idea how to handle as an ongoing series. They really need to calm down on the big events and go back to story telling without gimmicks.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Right. Go to a comic shop and see iron man 1. Great i'll pick it up but there are 5 issue 2 iron mans? I don't know which one to get. Guess I won't get this series. They make things as confusing as ever for new readers.
    People like to act as though this is absolutely impossible to navigate.

    One, any comic shop employee could quickly direct a customer to the right book.

    Two, a quick look on their phone could give people a ready answer about current volumes.

    We live in an age where information is constantly at our fingertips. It's easy to find out everything you need to know.

    If someone is so easily defeated by seeing two whole books on a shelf that both relate to Iron Man that they would simply give up and walk away, maybe comics are too challenging for them to dive into. Unless every character has one title to their name and it's always starting at issue #1, every new reader is going to have to do some catching up and put some effort into figuring things out.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Right. Go to a comic shop and see iron man 1. Great i'll pick it up but there are 5 issue 2 iron mans? I don't know which one to get. Guess I won't get this series. They make things as confusing as ever for new readers.
    You know the average comic reader and many people that are likely to be attracted to the medium are detail orientated with a desire to get stuck in. I really don't think they will be particularly put off. If anything they will be delighted to decode it all and explain it all to the person next to them.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    People like to act as though this is absolutely impossible to navigate.

    One, any comic shop employee could quickly direct a customer to the right book.

    Two, a quick look on their phone could give people a ready answer about current volumes.

    We live in an age where information is constantly at our fingertips. It's easy to find out everything you need to know.

    If someone is so easily defeated by seeing two whole books on a shelf that both relate to Iron Man that they would simply give up and walk away, maybe comics are too challenging for them to dive into. Unless every character has one title to their name and it's always starting at issue #1, every new reader is going to have to do some catching up and put some effort into figuring things out.
    If I'm a new reader, I don't want to have to work at something that should be fun.

  15. #75
    Incredible Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    Modern superhero comics do throw up all sorts of hurdles to the new and casual reader. I find the arguments to the contrary extremely unconvincing. It's probably more challenging with the team books than with the solo books, of course. A shared superhero universe which has been around for more than 50 years is going to be imposing enough for those who are not familiar with the ins and outs of every franchise. Making it more difficult than it needs to be is hardly helpful, which I suppose is one reason why Marvel feels the need to provide things like the free All-New All Different Reading Chronology.

    As to comics attracting details-oriented people, perhaps. But complexity of subject matter in, say, The Black Monday Murders, is one thing. Complexity imposed by Marvel's commercial strategies is quite another.
    Last edited by Coin Biter; 05-20-2017 at 10:16 AM.

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