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  1. #106
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    I think ""traditional"" would be better a better question than normal.
    Last edited by FLGibsonIII; 05-22-2017 at 10:30 PM.

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    I think we all know what went wrong with Ultimates. Marvel knew it was mostly dead and then had to consider what to do when Star Wars came along. I think they did the right thing, but then all I ever read was Ultimate Spider-Man and even then mostly Miles, with just the first arc of Peter. I wasn't surprised that they moved to Miles, it just felt pointless retelling a story. Not at all what I was looking for. Then it just got convoluted. Miles was the only part worth anything for me and it felt like a seperate bubble to nearly everything else in the 1610.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I think we all know what went wrong with Ultimates. Marvel knew it was mostly dead and then had to consider what to do when Star Wars came along. I think they did the right thing, but then all I ever read was Ultimate Spider-Man and even then mostly Miles, with just the first arc of Peter. I wasn't surprised that they moved to Miles, it just felt pointless retelling a story. Not at all what I was looking for. Then it just got convoluted. Miles was the only part worth anything for me and it felt like a seperate bubble to nearly everything else in the 1610.
    Okay, I have read a good chunk of the Miles comics. I think it was an improvement over the post-Ultimatum Peter Parker stuff, but I found it to be really weak compared to the pre-Ultimatum Ultimate stuff. I think part of the problem was that it got hijacked by events and crossovers before it really had a chance to find it's own voice, but I guess I'm not sure it did enough to really justify replacing Peter (at least for me); Miles was never that compelling of a character. Honestly, I find the supporting characters are what really make the stories worth reading.

  4. #109
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    "Normal" Marvel died forever once Joey and his "action figure" philosophy of comic books came to full power in Editorial. I benchmark the end of Marvel as it had existed since founding to about the time of Disassembled.

  5. #110
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
    "Normal" Marvel died forever once Joey and his "action figure" philosophy of comic books came to full power in Editorial. I benchmark the end of Marvel as it had existed since founding to about the time of Disassembled.
    Pretty much everybody does. Don't get the "action figure" philosophy, though.

    Peace

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Pretty much everybody does. Don't get the "action figure" philosophy, though.

    Peace
    WAY back when Joey was still playing 2nd banana to Jemas, he once articulated his theory about how superheroes should be treated by writers and by the company. Marvel to that point had treated it's universe as a reality that the comics were documenting with a history and with characters that were "real" people with consistent personalities, etc.

    Joey said characters were like action-figures. Writers could take them and repaint them, team them up with or set them against each other in any combination they chose, tie them to bottle-rockets and blow them up, or do whatever they wanted to do with them and it was meaningless because they could always go out and buy a new action figure afterwards.

    It was the basic philosophy behind getting rid of continuity, footnotes, etc that has cumulated in "unity" teams, Spider-Avenger, Gwenpool, among other things.

  7. #112
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
    WAY back when Joey was still playing 2nd banana to Jemas, he once articulated his theory about how superheroes should be treated by writers and by the company. Marvel to that point had treated it's universe as a reality that the comics were documenting with a history and with characters that were "real" people with consistent personalities, etc.

    Joey said characters were like action-figures. Writers could take them and repaint them, team them up with or set them against each other in any combination they chose, tie them to bottle-rockets and blow them up, or do whatever they wanted to do with them and it was meaningless because they could always go out and buy a new action figure afterwards.

    It was the basic philosophy behind getting rid of continuity, footnotes, etc that has cumulated in "unity" teams, Spider-Avenger, Gwenpool, among other things.
    Ah, thanks for clarifying that for me.

    Peace

  8. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
    "Normal" Marvel died forever once Joey and his "action figure" philosophy of comic books came to full power in Editorial. I benchmark the end of Marvel as it had existed since founding to about the time of Disassembled.
    One could argue it started after Shooter was fired.

  9. #114
    Mighty Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsLeadHat View Post
    In retrospect, I'm not sure if an alternate universe was the way to go. I don't see why Bendis and Bagely simply couldn't have retold Spider-Man's origin, in continuity, while simply expanding on the original Lee/Ditko origin.
    They already tried that and it was a disaster. See Spider-man chapter one... it was pretty universally hated.



    Quote Originally Posted by stain View Post
    I don't understand the argument either.

    Hate to say it, but in my day you didn't have nearly the amount of options to learn about the various details of the comic book universes. Today a kid can watch a few YouTube videos and know as much as I do, without having to read one single comic book. A lot of us had to read through back issues, wizard recaps, and discuss the comics at the LCS. I can't imagine having the MU at my fingertips when I was 15, pretty much any Marvel comic of note in the past 80 years all on an iPad. No searching through long boxes. Comixology back then would have seemed like a futuristic fantasy.

    If anything it's too easy today, it takes pretty much zero effort to "jump in" compared to any time in the history of comics.
    This!!! It is insanely easy to catch up on whatever you want. I hadn't read an X-men comic since the 90's... and when Avengers vs. X-men and All-new X-men came out, I jumped on Wikipedia and was caught up on EVERYTHING I had missed for 20 years in a night.

    Compare that to when I STARTED X-men and Spider-man in the late 80's and had to try to find back issues and reprints and follow little Editor notes in the story... It's CRAZY how easy it is to figure out where the story is right now. That's not even counting YouTube people who will literally read you the comics you don't want to buy.

    When I started I had 40 years of comics and a Crisis to juggle and it was a mild annoyance. Now?? it's not even that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    For a lot of people, they find it too daunting to jump into modern comics - the fact that they can't easily come in "on the ground floor" as it were presents a mental obstacle to them when it comes to the Big Two. I get that new readers find it easier to go with Image or other self-contained books rather than dive into a massive shared universe that has been in existence for decades.

    But I don't think that it's any more difficult now to jump on than it was, say, thirty years ago. If anything, the internet has only made it easier for novice and lapsed readers to get up to speed. If someone sees the complexity of Marvel or DC as a barrier, that's their choice but I don't think there's much to do about that. Fans want that complexity and that deep, interconnected mythology. Marvel might start another version of the Ultimate universe at some point to be that easy-to-grasp entry point again for newcomers (in fact, I'd be very surprised if a new UU wasn't already in the works) but the fact is, any comic is a suitable jumping on point.
    I think this actually says something about society at large. There is a level of spoon-feeding that boggles my mind. People want to have the entire experience... and they want it all right now... and with zero or less than zero effort. When I was young, there were no 'complete sets of DVDs for a TV series... there were no DVR's to record them (though we had VCRs if we remembered in time) and almost every tv show I've ever loved I had to jump into the middle of a season and follow along. You didn't even hear a show was good till your friends started talking about it and then you hoped for a rerun...

    Comics are a LOT like that. You find something with an interesting cover, jump in the middle and if you like it you track down more. They're on youtube, they're on Marvel Unlimited... I have a computer disc with every single Ghost Rider issue and Amazing Spider-man issues (through the 2000's... Almost every issue has had the TPB treatment now... And then there's Wikipedia and trivia sites... This stuff is Everywhere.

    If people aren't interested enough to even think about looking... then they really aren't that interested. But the excuse is REALLY hollow. It's like saying I'm not going to watch a Baseball game because I don't know where to jump on... and I have never seen Babe Ruth play... and these teams have played together for years and are constantly changing up players...

    At the end of the day... you don't need to know EVERYTHING to enjoy something.

  10. #115
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
    WAY back when Joey was still playing 2nd banana to Jemas, he once articulated his theory about how superheroes should be treated by writers and by the company. Marvel to that point had treated it's universe as a reality that the comics were documenting with a history and with characters that were "real" people with consistent personalities, etc.

    Joey said characters were like action-figures. Writers could take them and repaint them, team them up with or set them against each other in any combination they chose, tie them to bottle-rockets and blow them up, or do whatever they wanted to do with them and it was meaningless because they could always go out and buy a new action figure afterwards.

    It was the basic philosophy behind getting rid of continuity, footnotes, etc that has cumulated in "unity" teams, Spider-Avenger, Gwenpool, among other things.
    This philosophy is only seen as bad because it goes against the then prevailing ideas of the direct market readers of the time. The people that were lapping up the idea that comics were supposed to be dark, hard edged, logically consistent to the point of obsession, and certainly not for children. Frankly the comic's community had lost touch with what comics actually were. It is pretty much the only age of comics that criticised the Golden Age and tried to erase any trace of that philosophy from contemporary comics.

    Thank goodness for the editors that were prepared to accept that comics were supposed to be about larger than life characters that were fun to read and not overly obsessed with creating a world. They pulled us out of a dark hole and at the same time helped Marvel survive as a going concern when it was literally about to shut up shop because what they were publishing was just awful.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveAtThee View Post
    One could argue it started after Shooter was fired.
    Elaborate?

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    This philosophy is only seen as bad because it goes against the then prevailing ideas of the direct market readers of the time. The people that were lapping up the idea that comics were supposed to be dark, hard edged, logically consistent to the point of obsession, and certainly not for children.
    Uh, no. It as the general attitude of the industry (both companies) of the time, regardless of type of book. Plenty of books that were actually pretty light-hearted (or at least had their moments) that were just as consistent and careful with their history and characterization. PAD's X-factor, and Young Justice spring to mind, as does Vol 1 of Excalibur. Tom DeFalco's Spider-Girl, etc.

    Thank goodness for the editors that were prepared to accept that comics were supposed to be about larger than life characters that were fun to read and not overly obsessed with creating a world. They pulled us out of a dark hole and at the same time helped Marvel survive as a going concern when it was literally about to shut up shop because what they were publishing was just awful.
    So you'd rather have books where the character abitrarily changes from title to title, sometimes issue to issue that have no sense of history or permanence? We have that right now and fans are pissed, which is why sales are down.

    Try

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