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  1. #46
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    Thank you Dan Jurgens! The whole Superman with Wonder Woman because he was lonely and too afraid to chase Lois Lane (because she had a nonexistent boyfriend) was the worst thing done to the Superman mythology... EVER! It chased me and my entire Superman loving family to stop reading comics.
    The fact that Clark and Lois have been the one true love story in this new merged continuity makes me so HAPPY! Clark and Lois, Lois and Clark. It's just the way it's supposed to be since 1938, until forever. For the first time in nearly 6 years I can find Superman comics in my grocery store because Rebirth is so popular!!!
    Thank you Superman team, Dan, Peter, Patrick and all the artists. Thank you Geoff Johns!
    Thank you for bringing back my Superman, and his SuperFam. Thank you for making my hero, Lois Lane, the one, because she is truly so special. Non-powered doesn't mean Lois is powerless. Lois is a hero. Lois is an equal to Superman. Thank you for this relationship of equals, friends, partners, lovers, soul-mates!

    Best move for the Superman mythology since the Clark and Lois marriage and the birth of Jonathan Samuel Kent.
    Last edited by CloisLover; 05-16-2017 at 05:43 AM.

  2. #47
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    two 20-somethings who'd never been in a real relationship before and desperate to cling on trying to make it work through sheer force of will in spite of having nothing meaningful in common, with endless bickering arguments on fundamental issues interspersed with dramatic declarations of love.
    I liked the pre-Doomed issues anyway, but that's exactly how I would phrase the approach to the relationship. That in itself is a story worth telling, but in real life those relationships end if they're not perpetuated by circumstance. And there's only so much of that you can market to an audience.

    I thought it'd be easy to just place the relationship into that post-crisis period where he was just really attracted to WW and they both realized they'd be better friends, but oh well. I thought the implication in #978 was that things were maybe awkward but then Diana and Lois became good friends.

  3. #48
    Amazing Member durabill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I thought it'd be easy to just place the relationship into that post-crisis period where he was just really attracted to WW and they both realized they'd be better friends..
    I agree Action Comics 600 shows why Superman/ Wonder Woman should be the closest of friends and not in a relationship.
    It also still fits into the new timeline as well as it takes place way before Clark and Lois were even dating.

  4. #49
    Incredible Member suemorphplus209's Avatar
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    The whole thing sounded like it was another story in an alternate universe to me from the time I heard about it. But that's just me. I guess that's what it is as an item sold now is just a type of "Elseworlds" story, because it's stories like that, set in some alternate universe where the concept occurred anyways. (I am fully aware it doesn't have the label, just an observation)
    Currently Following: Batman, Detective Comics, Dark Knight 3, Flash, Amazing Spider-Man, Multiversity, Spider-Man, X-Men

    BRING BACK THE OLD WOLVERINE!!!

  5. #50
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Ok, so because It seems that "real fans" have a hard time grasping it, I'll write it down. Rebirth isn't Flashpoint. It was never advertised as a reboot of New 52, and except for Superman and WW, it isn't at all. So, the comparison between Superman-Lois relationship's erasure in 2011 and the Superman-Diana's one in 2016-2017 is fallacious.

    In the first case, a multiverse died, another was birthed and the heroes (and villains) went in other directions. It was one of the greatest strength of the New 52 (except for hardcore "fans" for whom it sometimes seems that even the smallest deviation compared to their image of a character is absolute treason and must be erased, purged, burned and forgotten) that iconic characters developed in some different ways. It was most obvious for Superman and Wonder Woman (and D.C. passed on the opportunity of developing Cyborg back in 2011 outside of JL books) but all the main characters benefited from it. Some things worked, other didn't. But it was all a new multiverse, with its rules and its characters.

    Rebirth was not advertised as the return of the old Multiverse, it was openly disclaimed that it wasn't a reboot. More optimism could have been ingrained into the New 52's characters if they had wanted to (and in the present case, both Superman and Wonder Woman and their relationship could have had this optimism, without destroying their relationship, for instance.

    To sum it up : Superman and Lois's relationship wasn't rendered non-canon or erased by Flashpoint. It had happened in another universe. But in the current situation, D.C. is willingly saying that what we saw, what we bought and what we supported during New 52 never existed. Basically, if you own SM/WW, you own a fan-fiction in a comics' guise. It is offensive, doubly so when D.C. isn't sending a message to the merchandising industry to stop produce SM/WW goodies, or the mobile games, where this relationship is still used to milk money out of casual costumers.

    For all those reasons, the current situation regarding the relationship between SM/WW is far more offensive that what happened in 2011, because it shows how hypocritical D.C is. Or cowardly, because they refused to reboot their line, but they erase bits and bits as they please. That's the problem.

    Not that I expect "real Superman fans" to understand it, of course.
    You're right in that "Rebirth" is not "Flashpoint". "Rebirth" is something like a reverse "Flashpoint". Neither is a true reboot, but some major things got changed. "Pre-Flashpoint" didn't happen on a "different" universe, and "Rebirth" is some of those elements being reinserted into the timeline through various means. Simple as that. It's always been that same universe, just changed.. twice.. or four/five times, depending on how you look at it.

    "Rebirth" is not a return to the old universe - if it were, Ma Kent would be back now and so would Conner. This isn't a reboot, but it is a merged timeline.

    So when "Flashpoint" happened, yes, Clark and Lois's relationship was erased from the timeline as it was. Now, it's largely restored. The Clark and Diana relationship saw the reverse of this (which, as I've said before, is very sad for those fans, I do sincerely feel for you). Hopefully there is another universe where they can explore what might have been, but, sad as it is, those were erased from the timeline when it was merged.

    As for merchandising - New52 merch wasn't available the second N52 hit - it takes time. And there have been SM/WW items long before the relationship became an actual thing, and they still will be for some time. That's just the nature of non-canon mass marketing and merchandising. DC Universe Online, for instance, uses a sort of modified Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint timeline - 6 years later, Superman still has trunks and Conner is still around.. and no change in sight (thankfully).

    The current situation is only more offensive because of which side of the fence you sit on. Having been on both sides of said fence, I can speak from experience. Please know that I'm not in any way suggesting you have to like it at all - just not to think yours is worse because it's yours. This should be an "I know how you feel" situation all around, for all sides, even as we celebrate/lament what we've gained/lost.
    Hear my new CD "Love The World Away", available on iTunes, Google Music, Spotify, Shazam, and Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01N5XYV..._waESybX1C0RXK via @amazon
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I liked the pre-Doomed issues anyway, but that's exactly how I would phrase the approach to the relationship. That in itself is a story worth telling, but in real life those relationships end if they're not perpetuated by circumstance. And there's only so much of that you can market to an audience.

    I thought it'd be easy to just place the relationship into that post-crisis period where he was just really attracted to WW and they both realized they'd be better friends, but oh well. I thought the implication in #978 was that things were maybe awkward but then Diana and Lois became good friends.
    Yup...this seems about right to me....

    My thought is that it shouldn't have been erased..it should have been left as a thing to SHOW Clark and Lois are the real deal and to foreclose that possibility forever, precisely because a person learns (or should learn) there's a difference between friendship and deep, romantic love.

    But...c'est la vie....

  7. #52
    Mighty Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I think the best solution is to bring back Hypertime. It was a "true" multiverse in the sense that all ideas existed somewhere. So if you want New 52 to have happened, there was still a universe out there where it did. And fans don't feel like they wasted money on books that no longer "count". Hell, DC was even willing to let them play with the pre-Crisis Superboy using Hypertime at a time when acknowledging any aspect of the pre-Crisis Superman was considered blasphemy. That's how well the idea worked.
    Jokerize those fries!

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Prime's Avatar
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    It was expected tbh.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwangung View Post
    Yup...this seems about right to me....

    My thought is that it shouldn't have been erased..it should have been left as a thing to SHOW Clark and Lois are the real deal and to foreclose that possibility forever, precisely because a person learns (or should learn) there's a difference between friendship and deep, romantic love.

    But...c'est la vie....
    I'm hoping that the producers of JL Action! team sort of do this now...they certainly hinted at it in a tweet following Clark and Diana's one date in an episode.

    Assuming JL Action comes back at all

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Ok, so because It seems that "real fans" have a hard time grasping it, I'll write it down. Rebirth isn't Flashpoint. It was never advertised as a reboot of New 52, and except for Superman and WW, it isn't at all. So, the comparison between Superman-Lois relationship's erasure in 2011 and the Superman-Diana's one in 2016-2017 is fallacious....Rebirth was not advertised as the return of the old Multiverse, it was openly disclaimed that it wasn't a reboot. More optimism could have been ingrained into the New 52's characters if they had wanted to (and in the present case, both Superman and Wonder Woman and their relationship could have had this optimism, without destroying their relationship, for instance.
    Actually, sorry to burst your bubble, but Rebirth WAS sold as a sort of "deboot." In the Rebirth special itself, you literally have Wally saying to Barry that the only reason for the N52 was that someone stole 10 years from the Pre-Flashpoint timeline. So, it was never a new universe. It was always the old one, but with moments (like Lois and Clark getting married and Tim being Robin) stolen from it.

    And, again sorry to burst your bubble, but the reverting back to Pre-Flashpoint extends WELL beyond Superman and Wonder Woman. Look at the Doom Patrol and the New Gods and pretty much all of the Young Animal books, which are using Pre-Flashpoint status quos and continuity as guiding principles. The Doom Patrol during the N52 looked like this:



    Now they've gone back to looking like this:



    which is more in line with their familiar Grant Morrison look:



    And, aesthetics beside, the very important fact is that their old adventures are treated as 100% canon now. Same thing with the New Gods (see the new Forager mini).

    And it extends to many other characters as well, including the Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, and JLA franchises. Wasn't it a big part of the N52 that nobody except for those seven had ever been members of the League? Yeah, well that's basically just been erased by Rebirth, since we see the JLA trophy room with all of the JLA's old artifacts and regalia from past members and we see John Stewart say that he was a member of the JLA.

    I made a whole thread about the examples of Pre-FP canon coming back, and well, it extends WELL beyond Superman and Wonder Woman: http://community.comicbookresources....Pre-Flashpoint

    To sum it up : Superman and Lois's relationship wasn't rendered non-canon or erased by Flashpoint. It had happened in another universe.
    Again, since Rebirth straight up said in the one-shot special released almost a year ago that this WASN'T a separate universe from Pre-Flashpoint, you're just plain wrong here.

    But in the current situation, D.C. is willingly saying that what we saw, what we bought and what we supported during New 52 never existed. Basically, if you own SM/WW, you own a fan-fiction in a comics' guise. It is offensive, doubly so when D.C. isn't sending a message to the merchandising industry to stop produce SM/WW goodies, or the mobile games, where this relationship is still used to milk money out of casual costumers.

    For all those reasons, the current situation regarding the relationship between SM/WW is far more offensive that what happened in 2011, because it shows how hypocritical D.C is. Or cowardly, because they refused to reboot their line, but they erase bits and bits as they please. That's the problem.

    Not that I expect "real Superman fans" to understand it, of course.
    Again, and I can't stress this enough, if you think that erasure of the Supes/Wondy romance (which lasted less than 5 years) is this big offense, then how do you think fans of Lois and Clark felt in 2011 when they were told that about 20 years' worth of comics showing Lois and Clark in a romantic relationship no longer mattered?? What you're saying here is entirely hypocritical because you can't look beyond your own personal feelings on the issue.

    And also, the very fact of Superman: Reborn means that, yes, the New 52 has been effectively rebooted away (and good riddance) because Superman, being such an important character, was deeply involved with many other characters. So, when you bring back his continuity, you bring back the continuity of many of those characters as well.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 05-16-2017 at 09:33 AM.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

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  11. #56
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    You know, my hate for SM/WW pairing could make me the strongest Red Lantern in the entire multiverse. But right now I will try to be Indigo Lantern.

    Think about it like this: in order for Rebirth/Reborn to happen, New 52 and Convergence had to occur in the first place. So those stories did happen, otherwise Rebirth wouldn't be possible. As Mr Oz pointed out, the merge created a new timeline. It was never stated that it erased everything that was before.
    Last edited by GreatKungLao; 05-16-2017 at 10:41 AM.

  12. #57
    Fantastic Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    One thing that can't be retconned or taken away, Wonder Woman FINALLY lost her virginity. It was with Superman and not Steve but at least it happened.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    One thing that can't be retconned or taken away, Wonder Woman FINALLY lost her virginity. It was with Superman and not Steve but at least it happened.
    As one writer said: "Wonder Woman lost her virginity to Steve."

  14. #59
    Mighty Member The Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    One thing that can't be retconned or taken away, Wonder Woman FINALLY lost her virginity. It was with Superman and not Steve but at least it happened.
    Just curious, have the comics ever talked about who she lost her virginity to? I don't remember it ever being mentioned

    I know Soules said it was Steve but nothing on panel. Idk why writers are so afraid of showing WW intimate with people
    Last edited by The Kid; 05-16-2017 at 10:20 AM.
    Favorite Marvel Superheroes: Spider-Man, Wolverine, Captain America, Daredevil, Storm, Thor, Jean Grey, Iron Man, Rogue, Black Widow

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  15. #60
    Mighty Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    One thing that can't be retconned or taken away, Wonder Woman FINALLY lost her virginity. It was with Superman and not Steve but at least it happened.
    if that was the case, then it's been retconned

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