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  1. #1
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    Default Should Sandman have stayed a reformed villain?

    Sandman started out as a villain, reformed after a while and became a villain again (due to being mind controlled by the Wizard, which is pretty silly, IMO). Do you think Sandman should have stayed reform or do you prefer him as a villain?

  2. #2
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    He was great as an ally for awhile (especially when written by DeFalco), but he's also too great as a villain to stay as a good guy.

    If anything though, he's retained a bit of a sympathetic characterization ever since going good.

  3. #3

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    Mixed feelings.
    The abrupt switchback was tough, but it is whatever it is. Blame John Byrne, I guess.

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    I honestly think so.

    It was a unique direction, and the reversal was clumsy (he betrayed Spidey in a Mackie/ Byrne issue; a back-up story revealed there was brainwashing involved which conditioned readers to think it would be reversed; later issues got more subtle suggesting he wasn't able to overcome his problems.)
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  5. #5
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Having him be a good guy was an interesting idea, but in the long run, I just feel he works better as a blue collar baddie. He's not going to try to take over the world, but he will knock over some banks. He's a good guy to call if you're a villain and need a little muscle.

    I don't like the sudden shift to him being a bad guy again, but it was for the best.

    One thing I'd like to see is him still being a criminal and not trying to reform, but if the stakes are high enough and the world is in trouble, he'd still show up to do the right thing. Hey, it's his world too.

    Just don't expect him to stick around once it's over.

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    Nah, I really dislike----with very few exceptions----reformed villains. Sandman to me is a classic Spidey villain and, to me, one of his strengths is that he does sorta, kinda have a conscience deep down under that gruff exterior. He also doesn't have delusions of ruling the world----villains like that are refreshing in between the Green Goblin and Doc Ock stories. Just give Marvel Team-Up #1 (original 1970's series) a read to see what I mean; I would much rather have stories like that as opposed to Sandman working for Silver Sable.
    I miss Kevin Nichols. Not as much as bacon, but still...

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    I kind of 'shipped Flint and Sable back in the day.

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    I think it was cool watching Sandman's turning to heroism play out and it was a good bit of character development for him, even if he's probably too iconic a Spidey-rogue to ever keep permanently reformed.

    I do think he should be a villain who's got a good heart, or at least as much as he's out for a big score he also has enough good in him to help out or do something nice if the situation calls for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    I kind of 'shipped Flint and Sable back in the day.
    Wow, that would've been...something .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it was cool watching Sandman's turning to heroism play out and it was a good bit of character development for him, even if he's probably too iconic a Spidey-rogue to ever keep permanently reformed.

    I do think he should be a villain who's got a good heart, or at least as much as he's out for a big score he also has enough good in him to help out or do something nice if the situation calls for it.

    Wow, that would've been...something .
    Yeah, "Looks like someone has sand in their..."

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  10. #10
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    I was always a fan of Sandman's heroic turn, it was well done, unlike his return to villainy, I'll always have hope that someday he'll return to being a hero, considering everything he's done as a villain since his brainwashing hasn't been his own choice. I really enjoyed his friendship with the Thing and hate to see his redemption flushed down the toilet
    "The preceding announcement has been paid for by the new World order"

  11. #11
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    Dan Slott seemed to be a fan of it too, as he gave Flint a heroic turn in the inaugural Renew Your Vows series, and even one of the back-up stories in the relaunch of RYV sees Peter entrust the care of little Annie to Flint despite Flint causing mayhem in the city

    Flint is also on the straight and narrow in the newspaper comics, although in the one arc he appeared in he was forced to commit crimes to ensure the welfare of his daughter.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Having him be a good guy was an interesting idea, but in the long run, I just feel he works better as a blue collar baddie. He's not going to try to take over the world, but he will knock over some banks. He's a good guy to call if you're a villain and need a little muscle.

    I don't like the sudden shift to him being a bad guy again, but it was for the best.

    One thing I'd like to see is him still being a criminal and not trying to reform, but if the stakes are high enough and the world is in trouble, he'd still show up to do the right thing. Hey, it's his world too.

    Just don't expect him to stick around once it's over.
    Too be fair, that could be Shocker, if he was given better writing and better characterization.

    I wouldn't have a problem with Sandman becoming a villain and the outline you described is a good one. The problem is how it was done. Lots of people in real life try to reform and end up failing back into crime, that could be an interesting story, it might have been a bit tricky if he was get finical assistance from Silver Sable, but with some clever writing it could have been done. Having him mind controlled by the Wizard is just ruins his past characterization with gimmicky plot devices.

    I would like see more in terms of morals from Sandman, having him be actively disgusted by the more vile members of Spidey's rogues gallery like Green Goblin and Carnage or just vile street level villains in general like Bullseye or Purple Man, it would also be interesting to see him be friends with the more sane problems of Spidey's rogues gallery.

  13. #13
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    I feel that being a villain should be the norm for sandman. If the planet Earth he lIves on as a whole is at stake, then I would be fine if he turned antihero or protagonist to save Earth, then slips away to turn up a villain. Similar to the ending of JLU when all those villains became allies of the JL because Darkseid was going to destroy their own planet if they didn't go with the heroes.

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    In light of Marko's past reforming as a good guy, its interesting to see what they've done with Clayface in the Rebirth issues of Detective Comics. He is now an ally to the 'Tec team led by Batman and Kate Kane.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    In light of Marko's past reforming as a good guy, its interesting to see what they've done with Clayface in the Rebirth issues of Detective Comics. He is now an ally to the 'Tec team led by Batman and Kate Kane.
    He did also have one of the best moments in Neil Gaiman's "Whatever Happened to the Cape Crusader?" a few years back.
    Sincerely,
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