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  1. #166
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Sure, there could be licensed and/or bootleg comics featuring fictional versions of the adventures of real-world superheroes. You'd lose the bit of dialog Barry has there about the Jay Garrick Flash only being fictional, though...
    No you wouldn't.
    If the real people themselves aren't remembered to have existed, the comic books could still be in play so that Barry would remember reading a comic book with a "fictional character" named "The Flash".

  2. #167
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    No you wouldn't.
    If the real people themselves aren't remembered to have existed, the comic books could still be in play so that Barry would remember reading a comic book with a "fictional character" named "The Flash".
    Wouldn't Barry have reacted differently if he remembered Jay's comic book adventures? Granted, he lives in a world where superheroes and costumed characters are real, but if someone is dressed up to look like a fictional character he's a fan of and familiar with, Barry especially (based on his detetcive skills) would have had some recognition.

  3. #168
    Metahumane MykeHavoc's Avatar
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    The only way to make that work is if the JSA had comic books made about them during WW2, like Captain America, and those are all that is left of their memory for the time being. Pretty clear this is clutter-Earth JSA and not Earth 2.

  4. #169
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Wouldn't Barry have reacted differently if he remembered Jay's comic book adventures? Granted, he lives in a world where superheroes and costumed characters are real, but if someone is dressed up to look like a fictional character he's a fan of and familiar with, Barry especially (based on his detetcive skills) would have had some recognition.
    That's why I previously posted:
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I do wish The Flash #22 at least had Barry recognize Jay as being a character he remembered reading about in old comic book stories when he was a kid.
    (Do we even know if the current Barry Allen read / collected any comic books or not?)






    (I haven't been really following The Flash since Manapul & Buccellato left.)
    as well as
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Still doesn't rule out the possibility that the JSA could have been in comic book stories on the same Earth, and that Barry could have read (really old) comic books they were in (or even reprinted stories of their adventures).
    Is there no possibility that there are Superman comic books on the main DC Earth?
    To which Vitruvian replied:
    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Sure, there could be licensed and/or bootleg comics featuring fictional versions of the adventures of real-world superheroes. You'd lose the bit of dialog Barry has there about the Jay Garrick Flash only being fictional, though...

  5. #170
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    That's why I previously posted: as well as
    My reading comprehension was off and I failed to understand the point you were making. My apologies and the point you were making was, in fact, valid.

  6. #171
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    No you wouldn't.
    If the real people themselves aren't remembered to have existed, the comic books could still be in play so that Barry would remember reading a comic book with a "fictional character" named "The Flash".
    The forgotten part wasn't stipulated, though... and the missing 10 years seems to be from the current generation of heroes' careers, not from the Golden Age JSA's WWII careers that were the subject of the comic shown in the panels provided.

    Never mind that in those panels, Jay et al weren't coexistent but forgotten apart from the comics, they were on an entirely different Earth/

  7. #172
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    The forgotten part wasn't stipulated, though... and the missing 10 years seems to be from the current generation of heroes' careers, not from the Golden Age JSA's WWII careers that were the subject of the comic shown in the panels provided.

    Never mind that in those panels, Jay et al weren't coexistent but forgotten apart from the comics, they were on an entirely different Earth/
    No, when those panels were first published, they were fictional characters period.

    That story was originally in Showcase #4 from 1956. It wouldn't be for several years that the concept of "Earth-2" would actually be introduced. ("Flash of Two Worlds" was published in 1961. And the concept of "Flash of Two Worlds" was revisited in the post-CoIE continuity in Secret Origins #50 from 1990.)



    As for the "forgotten past" you keep talking about, which "past" are you referring to?
    The idea of a "Justice Society" that disappeared in the 1950s is something Johnny Thunder mentioned in DC Universe: Rebirth from last May, and Johnny's brief appearance in The Flash #21 doesn't seem to have altered that concept. We just don't know yet if/how/when DC will ever go any further with all that.

  8. #173
    Incredible Member Link's Avatar
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    Did anyone notice how the cracks in the ground at Thawnes feet when he confronted what we presume to be Dr. Manhattan seemed similar to the roman numerals on the doomsday clock? Pretty neat

  9. #174
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    No, when those panels were first published, they were fictional characters period.
    The two are not mutually exclusive, since the scene with Barry reading Jay's adventures didn't go away when Earth-2 was discovered several years later. Jay was still fictional, AND actually existent on a parallel Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    That story was originally in Showcase #4 from 1956. It wouldn't be for several years that the concept of "Earth-2" would actually be introduced. ("Flash of Two Worlds" was published in 1961. And the concept of "Flash of Two Worlds" was revisited in the post-CoIE continuity in Secret Origins #50 from 1990.)

    All true, but the introduction of Earth-2 did not remove the Golden Age JSA fiction from Earth-1... although as I noted, we kind of have to assume that there were differences in the stories about characters who shared secret identities across the Earths. And it might be considered kind of odd that there were Superman and Batman comics before the Earth-1 versions ever showed up, so perhaps the Earth-1 comics did not in fact show a full complement of Earth-2 characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    As for the "forgotten past" you keep talking about, which "past" are you referring to?
    The idea of a "Justice Society" that disappeared in the 1950s is something Johnny Thunder mentioned in DC Universe: Rebirth from last May, and Johnny's brief appearance in The Flash #21 doesn't seem to have altered that concept. We just don't know yet if/how/when DC will ever go any further with all that.
    A forgotten past in which pretty much the 'classic' JSA existed in the past of the same timeline as the current DC heroes, which was not part of the current versions' (known, anyway) history again up until Rebirth, and even there it was not entirely clear that it was supposed to be something most people knew about, not like in pre-New 52 versions. And recall this was in response to discussions about Barry reading Jay comics that were made about 'real-world', same-Earth Jay, and my suggesting that if this was the case it made less sense for Barry to talk about how fictional Jay was, while the other poster was assuming that Jay's existence had been memory wiped or something.

  10. #175
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    Just noticed that that Flash of Two Worlds Secret Origin is written by Grant Morrison.

    I'd like to see the whole thing now.
    Retro315 no more. Anonymity is so 2005.
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  11. #176
    Metahumane MykeHavoc's Avatar
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    In the back of the original trade for the second half of his run. Wasn't recollected in the new edition unfortunately. I hung onto that book just for it.

  12. #177
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MykeHavoc View Post
    In the back of the original trade for the second half of his run. Wasn't recollected in the new edition unfortunately. I hung onto that book just for it.
    Heck, I just bought the issue (bought the whole series in issue form) as it was originally released.

  13. #178
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Have we seen Bruce's post wally meeting reaction after the Rebirth 1 scene? We remember them, but do the characters? How is Barry going to remember the Jay meeting? Keep in mind I sound ignorant because all I've read is Rebirth Special and the Button series.

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