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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanfan13 View Post
    I feel weird that I am female but haven't once thought the perspective of Lois' accident as a plot device to whatever they want with the men until I read this thread. My first reaction basically was "Oh nooo Lois! She lost a leg!! So hardcore! How are they going to fix that later??" and then "Oh God, she's hurt so badly, her cries hurt me so much, yet she still thinks of her family first than herself. If I were her and in the same condition I don't think I could be as strong as her. The power of a mother is so amazing. Now, Where's my own mom? I want to hug her and tell her how much I love her."

    Then, I saw Jon being forced to watch the whole scene and I was, "Noooo, my son! How dare you do that!!!"

    Though I respect those women who don't like this kind of development. After all, no matter how we look at it, she is indeed being used a plot device to put Jon on the opposing side of Superman. I hope that later Lois will also be the one to fix things between father and son because from my perspective, a mother is the base foundation of a family. If a mother is strong, so is the family and vice versa.
    That was what I felt too as a father. I actually very much understand the concerns about Lois though because what happened was pretty horrifying and I didn't notice it until I read the book again.

    I think the point of the story isn't necessarily to hurt Lois or make her look weak but to put Superman in a position where he might cross a line because his entire family is in jeopardy. Is it fridging? You could say so but it's always going to be a part of action/adventure fiction (i.e the trope that the main character's supporting cast is put in danger).

    However, this opens another argument about whether superheroes should have families at all because of the potential danger to them...

  2. #62
    Incredible Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    I can say the same thing about Alfred losing his hand in the NEW 52 Batman. Atleast this is going to be settled here and it actually serves a purpose, what exactly did the Batman book accomplish? a year of Batman books artists drawing Alfred in a manner where his hand (or lack of) wasn't noticeable? and they quickly reversed it with "magic" threads.
    I agree with you on Alfred's hand. My best guess is that Snyder truly wanted to let Bruce remains dead and Alfred was thus supposed to be physically wounded by it. Obviously, it wasn't meant to last however, and I think that it was one of the few mistakes of Snyder's main batbooks during New 52. it's also the same problem I have here : if you want Los to suffer for being in the vicinity of this battle, have a rock crush her hand, or her leg(s) (without going as far as that poor guy at the beginning of BvS) and broker her bones. I know from experience that a broken leg hurts as hell but it is also more easily healed that a cut leg. Same effect on the story without unnecessary shock value.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Lots of comments here about how this impacts Jon and how hard of must be for him. Very few people seem to care that the female readers were forced to watch their heroine grotesquely lose her leg seemingly as a plot device to motivate and hurt the men.

    What was done here to Lois was gross, disgusting and gratuitous. I don't care if it is eventually undone because the damage is done. Female characters and their bodies do not just exist to be maimed and harmed for plot. Especially this woman who already is stuck being the subject of a violent video game that also released today that revolves around her murder.

    You all thought this was bold and brilliant? You are worried about Jon? Well, almost every woman I know was devastated seeing this imagery. Seeing their heroine so disrespected. Some of them cried. One woman i know, who is disabled herself, was furious and tearful at seeing Lois treated this way. This issue was not received well amongst the female fandom. It caused a lot of women pain--even women who had been enjoying the book and defending Tomasi up to this point. We are tired of seeing her hurt.

    Food for thought and perhaps something to reflect on guys as you talk about how this impacts the Clark and Jon. And do not try to tell me that this could be a "great story" for Lois coming back from tragedy because women don't need to be physically maimed to be finally given something to do and if their growth only stems from a bodily harm then we have a problem.

    The issue itself was solid. What they did to Lois was bottom of the barrel and I think it has cost them the faith and trust of a lot of women.
    Well said. I'd suggest people re-read the discussion thread for Tomasi's first issue, Superman #1, in which the family cat was used in similar ways and give some thought to why some seemed more horrified and critical of the cat being harmed for plot and shock value than Lois Lane here. I think there was a way to tell a story where Lois gets injured that didn't fall into fridging territory in which her pain is in the service of men's stories instead of her own in a book where she is sidelined more often than not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine - The Worst Poster Ever View Post
    Superman doesn't kill. You don't challenge that by putting him in positions where he ends up killing, but instead you show the repercussions of Superman not killing.
    If you do that, then the lesson Superman learns should be that he shouldn't refuse to act the next time the situation presents itself. Unless, of course, the repercussions are purposefully presented in a way that minimizes or excuses the devastating results of inaction just to give Superman and readers a false peace of mind. Ultimately, if a repercussions story were done in a proper and honest way, then it would do the same thing as Superman killing would do: establish that the right course of action is to kill in certain circumstances. Otherwise, you get into territory where Superman not killing seems more about his preserving his own purity or self-righteousness than preserving the lives of innocent people. Which is probably why instead of Superman killing, stories don't typically explore repercussions so much as show Superman finding some contrived "better way" that fixes the problem with only positive outcomes.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Well said. I'd suggest people re-read the discussion thread for Tomasi's first issue, Superman #1, in which the family cat was used in similar ways and give some thought to why some seemed more horrified and critical of the cat being harmed for plot and shock value than Lois Lane here. I think there was a way to tell a story where Lois gets injured that didn't fall into fridging territory in which her pain is in the service of men's stories instead of her own in a book where she is sidelined more often than not..
    Safe Space Stories...ugh, nothing worse.

  5. #65
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Well said. I'd suggest people re-read the discussion thread for Tomasi's first issue, Superman #1, in which the family cat was used in similar ways and give some thought to why some seemed more horrified and critical of the cat being harmed for plot and shock value than Lois Lane here.
    Always good points. With Goldie the cat, I remember being shocked at enjoying the issue so much and seeing just about everywhere how it freaked people out. And now it's not the worst thing that Lois had a leg hacked off. Yeah, it will be healed where the cat is still dead... but it was just a cat where Lois is an actual character.

  6. #66
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    I'm waiting for the reveal Black killed the cat now.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    Lois is obviously not suffering any ill effects in 'Action', which very clearly takes place after this arc. She will be fine. In the Superbooks right now, the motto seems to be "everything old is new again." Eradicator, Cyborg Superman, and Manchester Black...and I'm sure that means a new illusion or two to fool Superman & Jon.

    As for Superman using heat vision, he could have been using it on a stone for all we know. If her losing a leg is an illusion, I'm sure he didn't really nuke her leg in the process. Is there a link for all these upset women, or just an anecdote? Because none of the women I know particularly cared one way or the other because, you know...fictional character.
    "Darkseid...always hated music..."

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    If Lois gets a prosthetic leg and still is as badass as ever, wouldn't that count as representation, especially after the loss of Oracle? I don't think the stunt provides potential only for Clark and Jon's development, it can actually do a lot more for Lois's development moving forward. How will she bounce back and navigate life as a disabled person balancing intrepid journalism and family life? In fact, I'd say this development could actually be used as a setup for a Lois solo ongoing title.

    Action Comics suggests it will be undone/revealed to be some sort of illusion though.
    I think it will be some sort of illusion, but that doesn't lessen the pain of seeing that visual imagery. I've been digging Tomasi and Gleason's Superman run big time, but this issue did give me pause. I realize that Lois is "just a fictional character" but seeing her mutilated had my stomach in knots the entire day. This is just compounded by the shabby way DC has treated her in the past...her being brutalized, victimized, or dead in elseworlds, video games, alternate earths, and so on. Heck, even in main continuity. her "death" was used to prove a point about Superman. And when she isn't brutalized, she gets marginalized and sometimes vilified as what happened during the New 52 era.

    As for her getting her own book, I wish but that's not how DC operates. I wasn't here for the whole Superwoman bait-and-switch debacle, but I read up on what happened and oh lord above, what another example of shabby treatment. I don't think her being mutilated would lead to her own book. DC would probably announce a solo for Lois only to make freaking Krypto the star.

    In any case, if this stunt leads to further development for Lois, that would be great. But for me, it doesn't lessen the pain of seeing one of my favorites suffer like that. Even if it is temporary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Always good points. With Goldie the cat, I remember being shocked at enjoying the issue so much and seeing just about everywhere how it freaked people out. And now it's not the worst thing that Lois had a leg hacked off. Yeah, it will be healed where the cat is still dead... but it was just a cat where Lois is an actual character.
    I have a relative who works in the broadcast news biz, and she's always telling me how viewers care more about animal stories than those about humans. Animals are even more popular than babies! Go figure.
    Last edited by stephtanner; 05-18-2017 at 10:50 AM.

  9. #69
    Incredible Member Grim Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Lots of comments here about how this impacts Jon and how hard of must be for him. Very few people seem to care that the female readers were forced to watch their heroine grotesquely lose her leg seemingly as a plot device to motivate and hurt the men.

    What was done here to Lois was gross, disgusting and gratuitous. I don't care if it is eventually undone because the damage is done. Female characters and their bodies do not just exist to be maimed and harmed for plot. Especially this woman who already is stuck being the subject of a violent video game that also released today that revolves around her murder.

    You all thought this was bold and brilliant? You are worried about Jon? Well, almost every woman I know was devastated seeing this imagery. Seeing their heroine so disrespected. Some of them cried. One woman i know, who is disabled herself, was furious and tearful at seeing Lois treated this way. This issue was not received well amongst the female fandom. It caused a lot of women pain--even women who had been enjoying the book and defending Tomasi up to this point. We are tired of seeing her hurt.

    Food for thought and perhaps something to reflect on guys as you talk about how this impacts the Clark and Jon. And do not try to tell me that this could be a "great story" for Lois coming back from tragedy because women don't need to be physically maimed to be finally given something to do and if their growth only stems from a bodily harm then we have a problem.

    The issue itself was solid. What they did to Lois was bottom of the barrel and I think it has cost them the faith and trust of a lot of women.
    I'm sorry the scene bothered you so much but I have to disagree.

    Every supporting character in every Superman book is there to serve the idea of...Superman. Same for Batman, Wonder Woman or anyone else with a book. The supporting characters serve the main character and their story.

    That is how basically every story works in fact. If putting a supporting character through the wringer brings out something interesting in Superman well that is the whole purpose of said supporting character.

    If you are going to try to avoid every story where something like this happens I think you will miss out on a lot of good stuff. These aren't real people, we can smash 'em up down and all around for a good story and that is what it is all about.

    Also it's very likely next issue or two Lois will be up and around kicking ass and maybe even saving the day.

    I actually find the scene to be in kind of bad taste myself and not really a great idea for a more all ages title like Superman, but I totally support their right to do it.
    Last edited by Grim Ghost; 05-18-2017 at 12:51 PM.

  10. #70
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Safe Space Stories...ugh, nothing worse.
    Wanting a well written and thought out yarn is not a bad demand...
    Follow your inner moonlight, do not hide the madness. -Ginsberg

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Lois should get a new leg like this one...




  12. #72
    Mighty Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    I like that Clark says he never trusted Cobb. He was picking up on the same vaguely creepy vibes Cobb was giving off, we did, in the past issues. This Superman has been at this for over a decade, he knows what a supervillain acts like. This explains why he was occasionally a dick to him, he just didn't like that fat milky bastard. Probably like 35% sure he was a POS in disguise, just didn't look more into it because he didn't want to compromise his son's friendship with Cathy.
    Edit: if Cobb becomes a reoccurring villain, "Fat Milky Bastard" is the perfect code name.
    Last edited by FishyZombie; 05-18-2017 at 04:22 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    That was what I felt too as a father. I actually very much understand the concerns about Lois though because what happened was pretty horrifying and I didn't notice it until I read the book again.

    I think the point of the story isn't necessarily to hurt Lois or make her look weak but to put Superman in a position where he might cross a line because his entire family is in jeopardy. Is it fridging? You could say so but it's always going to be a part of action/adventure fiction (i.e the trope that the main character's supporting cast is put in danger).

    However, this opens another argument about whether superheroes should have families at all because of the potential danger to them...
    I want to say that I think Superman comics have routinely subverted fridging. The whole point is to justify making a guy into a moody badass and Superman, outside of Injustice, routinely refuses to. Superman is about emotional struggles rather than physical ones anyway. A good Superman story is about people trying to break his heart.

    In this case, Black realized that he couldn't break Superman's heart through Lois so he's trying to break Superman's heart a different way by gambling that Jon will break and then that will give Black a moral victory over Superman by psychologically messing up his son.

    I also find a part of the creepy aspect of a conventional fridging the killing or maiming of a sexual partner (partly why I think the Killing Joke movie made things worse by pairing Batgirl and Batman off). Because what's behind that is toxic patriachy and masculinity and a whole bunch of other things that would take awhile to unpack. Whereas a friend or mother getting injured? That seems legit to me as the impetus for change in a character.

    And the change is what's important here. The "Superman thesis" is that you refuse to change when you your loved ones are hurt or killed. He's a moral absolutist, which makes a full fridging impossible because he doesn't give the reaction that people who write fridgings want. What's being tested here is whether Jon can have the same resolve.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Good point, The Learner! He might even be fooling Lois herself. Though, Clark does actually cauterize the wound with heat vision, so it could be real. We'll have to see.


    I've been think; maybe Black has somehow seen the future? Mr. Martinez says that "someday we will need him (Jon) to succeed where you (Superman) fail." He talks about like it's an inevitability. Has Black seen a dark future where Clark's aversion to killing has put not just Earth but other plants and even universes at stake? And maybe Jon is the only being on Earth more powerful than Clark who can do the job?

    Whatever future event Chester is trying to fight against (if it's true) would make an interesting arc to explore after this.
    It could have something to do with the vision of Lex becoming the new Darksied as seen in Action comics.

  15. #75
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    I feel like I need to weigh in on what happened to Lois in this issue. Earlier I stated that I was glad that DC was bold enough to do that (whether it's real or an illusion we'll find out next issue). What I said wasn't meant to dismiss the relativity of Lois as a character but more that this would have meaningful ramifications for Clark and Jon going further and really explore consequences of being in a superhuman family.

    I can see how some people would be horrified by what happened to Lois and I think I would probably have the initial same reaction if something like this happened to MJ and Peter Parker.

    But these are comic books and sometimes it's easy to play it safe and sometimes something like this can really enhance the story and the characters involved. DC can go several ways with this. They can reveal that it was just an illusion (no harm no foul), or it actually happened. If it's the latter, they can have her, Clark and Jon deal with the situation like people have to in the real world or they can give her a cybernetic leg that gives her some small enhancement in which she could protect herself or her family with in the future. Just something to think about.
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