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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    My suspicion is that
    spoilers:
    Not-Hydra Cap at the end is a fragment of the Cosmic Cube gone separately sentient from Kobik.
    end of spoilers
    Maybe this is what the pieces/fragments look like.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bossace View Post
    Rick mentions he hacked in to top level clearance database and learned about cap. If reality has truly been changed even if it was just caps reality how would anyone else know this. Skull is out of the picture and not part of hydra and kobik is not there. They have zero reason to know this or for there to even be a file. I hope I'm wrong but this seems like a bit a big jump for rick to figure out the cube is the reason for it all just used to progress the plot.
    Rick hacked into Selvig's files. Selvig's closeness to Kobik would've made him privy to her manipulations of Cap. It's not surprising that he would document that.

  3. #33
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    We already know that Scarlet Witch and Vision aren't doing this on their own accord thanks to the Secret Empire Free Comic Book day issue.
    We don't know anything about the others yet as far as I am aware.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Taskmaster and Black Ant were blackmailed. Join up or die, basically. Wanda and Vision are definitely brainwashed somehow, though we don't know the specifics or who did the deed. Odinson likely is a reaction to Steve lifting Mjolnir.
    And to round it out, Superior Octopus is there just because HYDRA is giving him the opportunity to take Parker Industries from Spider-Man, either by destroying it outright or by coopting it, as payback for what Otto sees as Peter squandering "his" company. Deadpool . . . just trusts Steve Rogers way too much for his own good.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotjx View Post
    I like the idea of the Heroes and Villains doing stuff to save NYC in their own way. Everything else is garbage. We once again spend pages talking if it is ok to kill evil Nazi Cap when the answer is yes. We are going to get another Avengers on Avengers violence for no good reason. I hate that Steve maybe good or maybe lost in time or whatever that last page is. The Nazi Cap storyline may go down as the Maximum Carnage of the 2010s. They could have done this without destroying Captain America and just re-introduced Red Skull as the President. That would be timely.
    The answer is not "yes." For some it might be but that isn't a unanimous decision by any means and as long as there's a way to defeat Cap without killing him and hopefully restore him, there's going to be some heroes who will fight to make that happen.

    And Avengers on Avengers violence for "no good reason"? I think saving the world from Hydra would be an excellent reason but it's clear that we're going to have heroes largely banding together to fight Hydra, not fighting each other. There may be separate groups trying to resolve the problem in different ways but they aren't fighting each other.

    And Red Skull as President...no. The whole reason this story works is because it's about Steve. About how impossible it is for heroes to go up against the best strategist in the world and also about how Steve will find his way back to himself. If it were just another story about taking down a familiar big bad who's been taken down many times before, it wouldn't be as compelling.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The answer is not "yes." For some it might be but that isn't a unanimous decision by any means and as long as there's a way to defeat Cap without killing him and hopefully restore him, there's going to be some heroes who will fight to make that happen.

    And Avengers on Avengers violence for "no good reason"? I think saving the world from Hydra would be an excellent reason but it's clear that we're going to have heroes largely banding together to fight Hydra, not fighting each other. There may be separate groups trying to resolve the problem in different ways but they aren't fighting each other.

    And Red Skull as President...no. The whole reason this story works is because it's about Steve. About how impossible it is for heroes to go up against the best strategist in the world and also about how Steve will find his way back to himself. If it were just another story about taking down a familiar big bad who's been taken down many times before, it wouldn't be as compelling.
    Best strategist in the world? Isn't the Maker, Reed Richards, and he's just evil Ultimate Reed Richards, and he's been defeated before. Shouldn't Hydra Cap be just a Maker-type evil Steve Rogers? And so, be easily defeated?

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    Check out that uniform 'Steve' is wearing on the last page. That's not just any uniform. That's the uniform Zemo put him in before tying him to the drone missile. I'm not sure what that means, but it probably means something.

  7. #37
    Spectacular Member Agatha's Ghost's Avatar
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    I thought this issue was just beautiful, especially the double-paged image of Rick Jones's exposition from beyond the grave. It was a wonderful way of giving significance to a classic character even as he has passed. I also loved the "welcome to the Red Room" image; however, realistically, it would have required quite a lot of blood to paint the wall like that.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Best strategist in the world? Isn't the Maker, Reed Richards, and he's just evil Ultimate Reed Richards, and he's been defeated before. Shouldn't Hydra Cap be just a Maker-type evil Steve Rogers? And so, be easily defeated?
    The Maker is good, sure, but it would be pretty easy to make the case for Steve. After all, there's no one else who has the same innate ability to find a path to victory.

    And every villain is eventually defeated, one way or another. It's not always easy, though, and this seems to fit into the "difficult" category.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jody Garland View Post
    Check out that uniform 'Steve' is wearing on the last page. That's not just any uniform. That's the uniform Zemo put him in before tying him to the drone missile. I'm not sure what that means, but it probably means something.
    Interesting! Good catch.

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The Maker is good, sure, but it would be pretty easy to make the case for Steve. After all, there's no one else who has the same innate ability to find a path to victory.

    And every villain is eventually defeated, one way or another. It's not always easy, though, and this seems to fit into the "difficult" category.
    That it is, (difficult, that is). As it's the first time we've seen an evil Steve Rogers, so it's difficult to negotiate his style of warfare, because nobody has seen it before.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Not having read the issue yet, ( I get it today), regarding the bearded Steve Rogers at the end, I'm leaning towards a Split personality. When you look at Kobik splitting into pieces in TBolts #12, it is my conjecture, that this Event made all the pressure of the preceding 16 issues of Steve Rogers split Steve Rogers into two people. To my imagination, I see Hydra Cap arc with the split of Kobik and his normal self land somewhere else. I can quite imagine the vexation in Steve Rogers could result in a split personality especially with the splintering of Kobik, triggering the evil Hydra Cap side to start the takeover of America.

    That bearded Steve? How long would it take for a beard to grow that long in an isolated location with no razor blades? 3 weeks? 2 months?

  12. #42
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    Do any of you still think Steve will die at the end of this event?

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptEmt12 View Post
    Do any of you still think Steve will die at the end of this event?
    Which one? There's two Steve Rogers's now lol.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Rick hacked into Selvig's files. Selvig's closeness to Kobik would've made him privy to her manipulations of Cap. It's not surprising that he would document that.
    I'm curious if Selvig even knew steve was changed since he too was manipulated by Kobik into being a hydra servent. To my knowledge only Red Skull knew and we know what happened to him, even his own daughter didn't support him over Steve.

    It still seems odd for there to be even documentation of and seems like a stretch to have rick learn that the cube changed him.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bossace View Post
    I'm curious if Selvig even knew steve was changed since he too was manipulated by Kobik into being a hydra servent. To my knowledge only Red Skull knew and we know what happened to him, even his own daughter didn't support him over Steve.

    It still seems odd for there to be even documentation of and seems like a stretch to have rick learn that the cube changed him.
    I don't know. It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. There might be more of an explanation for it forthcoming (Skull could've told Sin what he'd done - it certainly would be something he'd be happy to brag about - and she recorded the information herself or passed it onto Selvig. Any number of scenarios could be plausible.) but I don't think it's absolutely necessary.

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