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  1. #76
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    It makes me wonder when we'll be given what came of Maria hill because in the lead up to secret empire in one of the last preludes in Steve Rogers #16 she got cornered by hydra agents once they realized she knew Steve's secret and was going to expose his secret to the world this is also how Rick finds out the truth about Steve's secret when Maria gives Rick the Intel, but when Maria tries to escape hydra agents corner her at gun point and I'm assuming she's either killed off panel or like Rick she was put in a cell awaiting execution.

    So in a way Maria hill is the savior in a way because she gave the Intel to Rick which in turn is how the resistance/heroes found out the truth.
    I've been watching AOS and they are presently stuck in an alternate reality machine, and some are acting out of character, and others are the resistance to Hydra. I wonder if the Secret Empire Event is just super heroes being hooked up to alternate reality Hydra World in machines, and different sections of the community agree with Hydra and some are resistance, and, we'll get this thing in the end where they all wake up?
    Last edited by jackolover; 05-18-2017 at 01:32 AM.

  2. #77
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    I have read this now, and it's interesting to note that Steve Rogers admits, (after his long speech to the TV public), that he didn't order Ricks death, or, the Las Vegus attack. He couldn't do it, but left it to Elisa Sinclair to do. That sort of disrupts my idea that Steve Rogers isn't still conflicted. I suggested Steve has a split personality, but now, knowing this, it doesn't seem so, because the honourable, conflicted, Steve still seems to be home. So the other Steve that shows up at the end is a bit of a mystery still.

    I like these dramatic sequences in the book -

    1. The recovery of survivors by heroes in Las Vegus, unopposed by Hydra.
    2. The Darkhold sequences of the utter degradation, in Manhattan. (Note Luke's beard is as old as bearded Steves).
    3. Kingpins use of help to civilians for future gain.
    4. Black Widows solution to end more deaths by assassinating Hydra Cap
    5. The revelation from Rick that Steve was changed by Kobik, being revealed to the resistance, in the Mount.
    6. Steves TV speech and his admission of weakness to Zemo, in DC?
    7. The revelation the pieces of the cube are spread over the Earth in certain locations to be tracked down like a quest.
    8. The collecting of Champions as Natasha's assassination team in Colorado.
    9. The Montana villain exit visas.
    10. The bearded Steve Rogers rescuing a blond woman in a white dress, in some unknown location. The moons appearance seems to authenticate this is a real sequence?

    So much location shifts. We get a lot of resistance developments, with assassination operations and Cube quests, but very little Hydra progress this issue. The Narrator continues as other issues, but on a more positive note, by saying this is where the change happened for the resistance, so we are supposed to acknowledge that it is this Rick revelation that changes everything. Up till now, hope was lost. Hope becomes a possibility from now on.
    Last edited by jackolover; 05-18-2017 at 01:31 AM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Horrible to read. This is what we get when Marvel get fed up with artist delays on major events. A photo montage that looks like it was painted over by a child that fails utterly to draw you into the storytelling. A sequence of stills with no dynamism, no artistic merit and acting as a barrier to the story. I would probably have to read this again to get everything from the story, but I am not going to. Frankly I feel cheated. Underneath the limp watercolour effects and spidery traced lines there is probably an interesting story to be told but not one I was enjoying. This kind of art can work OK with the right context. The second issue of a summer event is not the right context.
    Everyone has their own taste when it comes to art but I have to say I'm surprised that anyone didn't love Sorrentino's work here. Outside of not digging Amadeus' face in one panel, I thought it was a gorgeous issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Yes, that's a point, but it would mean Hydra Cap changes into bearded Cap now and then. It doesn't seem possible given the time element.
    If the real Steve we see at the end is only in Hydra Cap's head, he can look like anything. He's just a part of his memories and doesn't exist in the real world.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I've been watching AOS and they are presently stuck in an alternate reality machine, and some are acting out of character, and others are the resistance to Hydra. I wonder if the Secret Empire Event is just super heroes being hooked up to alternate reality Hydra World in machines, and different sections of the community agree with Hydra and some are resistance, and, we'll get this thing in the end where they all wake up?
    I'm gonna say there's not a chance of that. This is definitely not about the superheroes community living inside a computer-generated world.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by rui no onna View Post
    Again, that's because you like the event.

    There are probably others who may not be so inclined and might prefer an approach more similar to Guardians or will be sitting out the books while the event is ongoing (hopefully, they don't have the books that will tie-in on pull with their LCS and then stick the LCS with the unsold copies).

    Personally, I'm just buying the Nick Spencer books plus the following. I hope nothing essential happens in the tie-ins I'm not getting. I don't really fancy spending an extra $50+ per month for tie-ins.
    My general rule of thumb with event tie-ins is to just get the books I'm already getting. Maybe occasionally I'll get something beyond that that looks intriguing if money permits (I'll admit that SE #2 did sell me on wanting to check out Uprising and Underground) but I never feel obliged.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Again, this all goes back to there simply not being enough time to show the full situation in this issue alone, but it's not like Darkhold demons are ever shown to be exceptionally smart.
    Is there a tie-in specifically related to this situation?
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

    I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    My general rule of thumb with event tie-ins is to just get the books I'm already getting. Maybe occasionally I'll get something beyond that that looks intriguing if money permits (I'll admit that SE #2 did sell me on wanting to check out Uprising and Underground) but I never feel obliged.
    That's funny because that's essentially what I do lol since all the titles that are tying into the secret empire story are all titles I was committed to reading monthly from the start.

    And the one shots for me are a must no doubt.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Is there a tie-in specifically related to this situation?
    I think the Doctor strange tie in arc which I think is issues 21-24 will focus on the crisis with the demons inhabiting Manhattan uncanny avengers too which is issues 24-25.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Aw, neither book I read. If I end up reading those, these months are going to get ridiculously expensive. Are the Uncanny Avengers even in Manhattan?
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

    I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
    Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

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  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Aw, neither book I read. If I end up reading those, these months are going to get ridiculously expensive. Are the Uncanny Avengers even in Manhattan?
    Yeah they're trapped in Manhattan with Doctor strange, cloak and dagger, Jessica drew/spider woman, and the defenders kitty pryde's x-men gold team are also trapped there since Central Park is located in Manhattan and that's where their school is but they'll be in their school lol.

    I think the uncanny avengers are in a different part of Manhattan though, but much like Doctor strange, the defenders, cloak and dagger and spider woman, the uncanny avengers were in Manhattan when the attack in Manhattan was happening shortly before blackout and zemo used the dark hold to shroud and trap the city in the dark force dimension shield hence why they're trapped in Manhattan.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 05-18-2017 at 04:14 AM.

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Everyone has their own taste when it comes to art but I have to say I'm surprised that anyone didn't love Sorrentino's work here. Outside of not digging Amadeus' face in one panel, I thought it was a gorgeous issue.
    Well part of my reaction is from the gut immediately having read the book. I don't mind Sorrentino's work in certain contexts, but my! I literally waded through this book like it was treacle. For a mainstream book I demand a certain amount of movement and intent, and you can't get that from photo reference. And he made Kingpin look like the Penguin! You should see the self editing I am relying on to not be too dismissive.

    All-New X-Men Annual was gorgeous, but this, not so much. I thought his Old Man Logan work was great. He needs space to allow the pages to flow. I don't think he has it here and the storytelling suffers IMO.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-18-2017 at 05:38 AM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The answer is not "yes." For some it might be but that isn't a unanimous decision by any means and as long as there's a way to defeat Cap without killing him and hopefully restore him, there's going to be some heroes who will fight to make that happen.

    And Avengers on Avengers violence for "no good reason"? I think saving the world from Hydra would be an excellent reason but it's clear that we're going to have heroes largely banding together to fight Hydra, not fighting each other. There may be separate groups trying to resolve the problem in different ways but they aren't fighting each other.

    And Red Skull as President...no. The whole reason this story works is because it's about Steve. About how impossible it is for heroes to go up against the best strategist in the world and also about how Steve will find his way back to himself. If it were just another story about taking down a familiar big bad who's been taken down many times before, it wouldn't be as compelling.
    Who said this was compelling story telling. Its getting shat upon for good reason. The problem with saying we can't kill Steve, because he is our friend, is you already told the readers, he never was. By making him a traitor from like Day 3 of his time as Cap, he was never their friend. He was always an enemy. There is no real Steve to save here. Yes, you can kill a guy who was always going to betray you and so mind screwed you need an all powerful artifact to maybe get him back. Maybe. If you ignore this argument, Steve being a soldier would understand the mission comes first. The mission is to save lives even if it means sacrificing his.

    Regardless, they are introducing multiple Steves as just plot points for creating this stupid storyline to begin with. You can kill this one and you have another Steve who can replace him. Maybe. Who knows. This is such a stupid concept and I honest to God hope we actually get an editor in this company that when a bad idea comes up like this, he slaps it down or at least workshops it, so you don't piss all over 70 years of fandom for no good reason.

    The Avengers will fight other Avengers, because that is the new big thing of heroes vs. heroes even if its for a panel or two. Unfortunately, it will be old school heroes we like against the new heroes we want to like, but have to be proven wrong, because they are kids and don't know any better. Also, Marvel now hates the diversified characters it created.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotjx View Post
    Who said this was compelling story telling. Its getting shat upon for good reason. The problem with saying we can't kill Steve, because he is our friend, is you already told the readers, he never was. By making him a traitor from like Day 3 of his time as Cap, he was never their friend. He was always an enemy. There is no real Steve to save here. Yes, you can kill a guy who was always going to betray you and so mind screwed you need an all powerful artifact to maybe get him back. Maybe. If you ignore this argument, Steve being a soldier would understand the mission comes first. The mission is to save lives even if it means sacrificing his.

    Regardless, they are introducing multiple Steves as just plot points for creating this stupid storyline to begin with. You can kill this one and you have another Steve who can replace him. Maybe. Who knows. This is such a stupid concept and I honest to God hope we actually get an editor in this company that when a bad idea comes up like this, he slaps it down or at least workshops it, so you don't piss all over 70 years of fandom for no good reason.

    The Avengers will fight other Avengers, because that is the new big thing of heroes vs. heroes even if its for a panel or two. Unfortunately, it will be old school heroes we like against the new heroes we want to like, but have to be proven wrong, because they are kids and don't know any better. Also, Marvel now hates the diversified characters it created.
    This series that's being "shat on" is getting stellar reviews. So I guess all those reviewers who have been giving every issue so far an 8 out of 10, 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 would be saying it was compelling story telling. And, of course, all the people on comment threads who are enjoying it as well. It's not for everyone, no, but then again what is?

    And according to the story, as far as many of these characters know, there is a Steve to save. And even if there wasn't, killing is not usually the go-to response to a problem.

    There's a legitimate argument to be made on either side.

    And as we don't know anything yet about who this other Steve is at the end of issue #2, it's far too soon to talk about "multiple Steves". For all we know the last scene in this issue is taking place inside Hydra Cap's mind and there's still only one Steve. You're preemptively judging something as a bad idea well before you even know what that idea is.

    And "Marvel hates the diversified characters it created"? Doesn't look that way at all.

    On a side note, I love how the reactions to this are so similar to those towards Superior Spider-Man in that once that story got rolling and was successful and well-reviewed and well-received and people were able to see the big picture coming together that the haters who so badly wanted it to fail were just driven even crazier.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 05-18-2017 at 08:50 AM.

  14. #89
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Taskmaster and Black Ant were blackmailed. Join up or die, basically. Wanda and Vision are definitely brainwashed somehow, though we don't know the specifics or who did the deed. Odinson likely is a reaction to Steve lifting Mjolnir.
    True I forgot about Taskmaster and Black Ant.
    I do hope that Odinson has a better explanation than Steve being worthy of lifting Mjolnir.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agatha's Ghost View Post
    I thought this issue was just beautiful, especially the double-paged image of Rick Jones's exposition from beyond the grave. It was a wonderful way of giving significance to a classic character even as he has passed. I also loved the "welcome to the Red Room" image; however, realistically, it would have required quite a lot of blood to paint the wall like that.
    Hahaha my thoughts exactly.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptEmt12 View Post
    Do any of you still think Steve will die at the end of this event?
    Could be but I hope he doesn't and has to face what he did.
    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Well part of my reaction is from the gut immediately having read the book. I don't mind Sorrentino's work in certain contexts, but my! I literally waded through this book like it was treacle. For a mainstream book I demand a certain amount of movement and intent, and you can't get that from photo reference. And he made Kingpin look like the Penguin! You should see the self editing I am relying on to not be too dismissive.

    All-New X-Men Annual was gorgeous, but this, not so much. I thought his Old Man Logan work was great. He needs space to allow the pages to flow. I don't think he has it here and the storytelling suffers IMO.
    I get what you are saying, his art is kinda hit and miss at times, especially in this issue. Like the panel with Natasha riding of on her bike. That looked sick. But during her conversation with Clint both looked... old and ill.
    Last edited by Matternativ; 05-18-2017 at 09:50 AM.
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  15. #90
    Astonishing Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    I get what you are saying, his art is kinda hit and miss at times, especially in this issue. Like the panel with Natasha riding of on her bike. That looked sick. But during her conversation with Clint both looked... old and ill.
    Indeed panels with modes of transport have both intent and dynamism, but this issue largely lacks those things. What he is good at is expansive double page spreads with a unifying artistic feel, that allow the visuals to flow and unfold the story. The attempt in this issue, with the montage was one of those that just makes me turn the page, which is never a good thing for that much real-estate.

    Contrast with the similar page he did in the All-New X-Men Annual with the subdividing timelines. That was engaging, I studied every inch of that page. I posted it on my blog and raved about it. Chalk and cheese reaction.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-18-2017 at 03:50 PM.

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