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  1. #1
    Moderator oldschool's Avatar
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    Default Will we ever get a new villain that achieves classic status again?

    My guess is a simple no but you never know; I think we can all agree that Hobgoblin and Venom were the last two villains to be introduced that have achieved classic/legendary status. Maybe Carnage though I think he falls just a little short. But, since then----and we are a quarter century on now, I don't think anyone has come close.

    JMS made a good push with Morlun and Dan Slott with Mr. Negative but I don't think either is anywhere near the status of the aforementioned nor the classic rogues' gallery. We have had some good new additions over the last 25 or so years (Paper Doll, Fusion and Mr Negative all quickly come to mind) but it's no secret that it is hard for any writer to come up with a new big baddie that will be remembered years from now. It probably comes down to the best ideas have been mined long ago and the fanbase frankly just wants the "greatest hits" the same as most concertgoers when they buy that ticket to see U2 or Tom Petty.

    Thoughts?
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  2. #2
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    Well, it doesn't help that they used to introduce a new villain every month, but now story arcs can take half a year.

  3. #3
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    Morlun has Spider-Verse to add to his infamy, though he did get lost in the shuffle a bit in Spider-Verse, and it was his brother Daemos that took out "MC2" Peter Parker, I'm surprised not much else was made out of him (other than being used to drive Mayday nuts in Secret Wars), if Marvel were interested in more Spider-Girl stories, he'd have made a seminal impact.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Morlun has Spider-Verse to add to his infamy, though he did get lost in the shuffle a bit in Spider-Verse, and it was his brother Daemos that took out "MC2" Peter Parker, I'm surprised not much else was made out of him (other than being used to drive Mayday nuts in Secret Wars), if Marvel were interested in more Spider-Girl stories, he'd have made a seminal impact.
    They've gotten a fair amount of mileage out of Morlun, considering he's appeared so infrequently over the years (thought I read that Priest had him appear in his Black Panther run).

  5. #5
    Moderator oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Well, it doesn't help that they used to introduce a new villain every month, but now story arcs can take half a year.

    Well, they only introduced new villains every month (or so) back when the title started 55 years ago; it was a blank slate back then and so all possibilities were open. But, even in the 1970's and 1980's, new villains were still introduced (albeit more slowly) that had staying power----The Jackal, The Punisher, Hammerhead, Tombstone, Cloak & Dagger, Will O' The Wisp, Stegron, Swarm, Hobgoblin and of course Venom all come to mind and I am sure there are many others. So I don't think it's simply that we have longer story arcs now (thought that is likely a factor).
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    My guess is a simple no but you never know; I think we can all agree that Hobgoblin and Venom were the last two villains to be introduced that have achieved classic/legendary status. Maybe Carnage though I think he falls just a little short. But, since then----and we are a quarter century on now, I don't think anyone has come close.

    JMS made a good push with Morlun and Dan Slott with Mr. Negative but I don't think either is anywhere near the status of the aforementioned nor the classic rogues' gallery. We have had some good new additions over the last 25 or so years (Paper Doll, Fusion and Mr Negative all quickly come to mind) but it's no secret that it is hard for any writer to come up with a new big baddie that will be remembered years from now. It probably comes down to the best ideas have been mined long ago and the fanbase frankly just wants the "greatest hits" the same as most concertgoers when they buy that ticket to see U2 or Tom Petty.

    Thoughts?
    Alternately, Spider-Man already has an extensive rogues gallery. Some were one and done's.

    Is there more that could be done to actually flesh out the existing rogues and make them greater threats?

    I'm thinking along the lines of what Van Lente did with The Spot in ASM #589, or what Peter David did with Electro in "Return Of The Sin-Eater".

  7. #7
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think it's difficult for writers to come up with an interesting and engaging new villain for people to latch onto in this modern age of comics. For every Court of Owls there's a First Born, for every Mr. Negative there's a Freak.

    DC and Marvel usually have more success either reinventing or updating their classic or older villains into stronger characters and antagonists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Morlun has Spider-Verse to add to his infamy, though he did get lost in the shuffle a bit in Spider-Verse, and it was his brother Daemos that took out "MC2" Peter Parker, I'm surprised not much else was made out of him (other than being used to drive Mayday nuts in Secret Wars), if Marvel were interested in more Spider-Girl stories, he'd have made a seminal impact.
    I don't think Spider-Verse really did that much for Morlun other then bringing him back. I mean, I guess it introduced his generic steampunk-vampire family, but that's about it. I can't say he had that impressive or notable a showing in that event (granted, not many characters did).

    They didn't even include the Inheritors in the cartoon adaption of Spider-Verse. Granted, the stories were completely different, but it gives the sense that they weren't that significant.

    I think he'll always still be remembered more for the beatings he gave Peter, and for being a major part of the JMS run, then Spider-Verse.

  8. #8
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Hobgoblin benefited from Norman Osborn's total absence from the books. Venom benefited from Secret Wars, and its being the first big comic book event. Of the two, Venom is really the one to fill a unique niche, being a sort of "anti-Spider-Man" that hadn't existed before.

    Morlun is the closest I can think of right now. But he's kind of a copy of Kraven, same schtick. Maybe he benefited from Kraven's death?

    There is potential for Superior Spider-Man, in some form. Not sure if that ends up being Doc Ock, Ben, or someone else. Kind of similar to Venom, in that he's an alternate form of Spider-Man.
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  9. #9
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    There is potential for Superior Spider-Man, in some form. Not sure if that ends up being Doc Ock, Ben, or someone else. Kind of similar to Venom, in that he's an alternate form of Spider-Man.
    And he kind of hinges on Doc Ock taking over Peter's body, which is an idea with a limited shelf-life.

  10. #10
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    I don't think Spider-Verse really did that much for Morlun other then bringing him back. I mean, I guess it introduced his generic steampunk-vampire family, but that's about it. I can't say he had that impressive or notable a showing in that event (granted, not many characters did).
    Honestly, I thought Spider-verse actually made Morlun more tolerable than any of his previous appearances.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And he kind of hinges on Doc Ock taking over Peter's body, which is an idea with a limited shelf-life.
    I would say SpOck is the same case of Hobgoblin, while the Hobgoblin worked because he took the vacuum left by Norman, SpOck took the gap left by Norman and Venom after One More Day. This event erased the knowledge about Spidey identity and this was the big reason this two were considered two of the biggest enemies Spider-Man had. Without it, Norman lose the personal relationship with Spidey and part of the motivation to go after Spider-Man and Venom is just a tug with Spider-powers. One can say that SpOck is also a mismatch of this two villains in some way.

  12. #12
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksuit View Post
    I would say SpOck is the same case of Hobgoblin, while the Hobgoblin worked because he took the vacuum left by Norman, SpOck took the gap left by Norman and Venom after One More Day. This event erased the knowledge about Spidey identity and this was the big reason this two were considered two of the biggest enemies Spider-Man had. Without it, Norman lose the personal relationship with Spidey and part of the motivation to go after Spider-Man and Venom is just a tug with Spider-powers. One can say that SpOck is also a mismatch of this two villains in some way.
    I wouldn't say that's SpOck per se, but definitely Otto in general and now going on as the "Superior Octopus."

  13. #13

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    I think it's possible.

    What you need is a villain who fills a role that others didn't, and that's increasingly possible as the world changes.

    In the Batman books, Bane wasn't introduced until Batman had been around for 54 years.

    A regular rush of film adaptations also gives opportunities for new bad guys to make an impact.

    There are a few disadvantages new villains, but these can be surpassed.

    Classic villains have the prime mover advantage. The Kingpin is the most notable crime boss. Doctor Octopus is the most notable mad scientist. The Lizard is the most notable Jekyl/ Hyde. etc. They'll have appeared in more stories.

    Writers tend to use their own bad guys or the classics. This allows villains introduced more recently to fall through the cracks.

    Writers don't have to worry about keeping new villains intact, so they have more flexibility. Some of the most promising new bad guys were killed off by their creators (Sin-Eater, Fusion, Massacre) partly because this was a compelling story available to them that's tough to pull off with a Lee/ Ditko villain.
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  14. #14
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wouldn't say that's SpOck per se, but definitely Otto in general and now going on as the "Superior Octopus."
    And considering that "Superior Octopus" is technically cloned from both Peter's and Otto's DNA, but with Otto's mind firmly in charge, he has the benefit of Otto's intelligence, drive, and ruthlessness coupled with Spider-Man's powers and the knowledge of Spider-Man's dual identity. So he would make a good replacement for both Venom and the Green Goblin, especially if he used his new face to adopt a new civilian persona that he could use to rival or take over Parker Industries and cause Peter no end of headaches that Peter couldn't stop without giving away his secret identity or making himself into a criminal.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    And considering that "Superior Octopus" is technically cloned from both Peter's and Otto's DNA, but with Otto's mind firmly in charge, he has the benefit of Otto's intelligence, drive, and ruthlessness coupled with Spider-Man's powers and the knowledge of Spider-Man's dual identity. So he would make a good replacement for both Venom and the Green Goblin, especially if he used his new face to adopt a new civilian persona that he could use to rival or take over Parker Industries and cause Peter no end of headaches that Peter couldn't stop without giving away his secret identity or making himself into a criminal.
    But, would not be better if the Green Goblin regain the knowledge about Spider-Man identity or would be able to remember all their story with Spidey/Peter until the unmasking? Having one villain that alone fill all roles can be interesting if you just want to use this villain, however Venom and the Green Goblin still impoverished and without what make them so great. Dock Ock even without this new elements still unique and compelling, just diluting each one of this villains is not good at the long term.

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