View Poll Results: 10 Years Later, was the deal with Mephisto worth it?

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    36 20.45%
  • No

    140 79.55%
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  1. #541
    Fantastic Member Timmyb52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masked Guy View Post
    I think Tuck was referring to Quesada fixing the book after Howard Mackie's run.
    OK...if that's what he meant then my bad.

  2. #542
    Mighty Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    As a creative-minded person who has worked on his own private fictional projects and RPG campaigns, I can say that that's not the case. Besides, the fact that they were planning to go that route does say something.
    I stand by it also as a creative person. Whatever I planned to do... but didn't get around to it, doesn't matter. I can have the biggest plans in the world, but if I blow it and it doesn't happen... it didn't happen.

    Keep in mind this whole conversation is a direct result of the statement "MJ is ESSENTIAL to the Spider-man mythos". I'm not anti-MJ or pro Gwen... I'm just pointing out the TONS of times that the Spider-man Mythos has been played with successfully with no Mary Jane in sight. Many of which were my personal favorite incarnations and a lot of others fans too.



    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Not exactly. The original three movies had Mary Jane. The Mark Webb movies had a Gwen Stacy who was an adaptation of the Ultimate comics version of Mary Jane (I'm a huge Ultimate Spider-Man comics fan and can confirm this from first hand observation) and were planning to have an actual Mary Jane before the series was cut short. Can't speak for Homecoming, since I haven't seen that yet. But no matter how you slice it, in some shape or form, Mary Jane has been or defined the leading lady of over half the movies made and two of the three franchises.
    If you plan on introducing an element in the THIRD movie... it isn't essential. Imagine a Superman property that waited three movies to mention Krypton or Smallville (Kansas or otherwise). Lois Lane or Daily Planet... How about a Batman property that will someday get around to the Batcave or Alfred or Joker? Even Batman Begins and Batman V Superman had Joker attached in some way even without them being the main draw. I personally think it's criminal how much they bypass Robin... but there are a lot of things that if you don't include in Batman... it's not really Batman or Superman anymore.

    As for Gwen? I only remember TWO major stories with her. Personally I found her kind of boring... but those two were Death of Capt. Stacy and The night Gwen Stacy Died.... That pretty much sums up Webb's Gwen. She was the nice girl who was a friend like Ultimate MJ... but that is so superficial that any teenage girl could fill that role. There wasn't anything that was truly... definitively MJ in Webb's Gwen. Even as a fan of the Ultimate Series (at least till Bagley left) I don't see Ultimate MJ working as a scientist for Osborne and being smarter than Peter... Webb took the high points from 616 Gwen, and then just filled in the rest with what fit his story.

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Has it? Constantly restarting the character and reimaginging is kind of the opposite of Evolving.
    In the comics, much of the 70s and 80s and then the entirety of the 90s and 00s were dedicated to MJ as the main love interest. That was then reflected in the media adaptations

    What they planned to do, and what they did are really irrelevant. MJ was not the main love interest in that show. This so called 'essential' element was completely missing, and I still hear fans rant and rave over how awesome that show was and how stupid Marvel was for canceling it and how it was the perfect series... Which, while again, I wasn't a fan of it. That amount of popularity WITHOUT MJ at the center seems to contradict the 'essential' aspect. There has so far been ZERO Superman shows that have had NO Lois Lane in them. Even Smallville which had NOTHING to do with his Lois years... still found a way to squeeze her in.

    Again, 'Were going to' doesn't count. What we have now, is SIX Live action Spider-man movies... and only half of them have Mary Jane in them. And basically we're now looking at two out of three franchise that have not featured MJ.
    It actually is relevant. The plans of where to ultimately take a franchise reveal how the people making those franchises view the ultimate trajectory of Peter's development as a character and his relationships. If Weisman confirmed that they planned on making her the main love interest in Spectacular Spider-Man and if MJ was going to feature heavily in the future of the Amazing Spider-Man movies, then that's evidence of their views of who is important to the life of Peter Parker.

    Those in charge of the Amazing Spider-Man movies could have kept Gwen Stacy alive or gone with any number of love interests after her death, but they chose to go with Mary Jane. That shows one simple thing: that they, and most, have a solid idea of what direction Peter's life should take...and that direction is straight to Mary Jane.

    This is the problem I have with 'reworked' characters though... What is it that the MJ fans want?
    In a sentence? Her and Peter back together ASAP.

    What do they love? Do they love the party girl who was hooking up with Harry and the soap opera star who eventually became Mrs. Parker?? Because that character hasn't been seen yet.
    Probably the best answer to your question is this: they want back one of the most unique relationships in all of comics. MJ was hardly just a party girl. She was probably one of the most developed love interests in any comic book, if not the most. One of the things that made her and Peter's relationship so unique among superhero romances was that it actually unfolded pretty much like real life romances do.

    All this talk of her not being there at the beginning being a count against her is kind of ridiculous when you consider how unlike other superheroes, Peter's story picked up with him in high school. Most people don't meet the person they ultimately end up with until they're adults themselves, something we take for granted in Lois and Clark's story (the fact that they were already adults when they first met). So, its not that likely that Peter would have ended up with any of the characters that he dated as a teenager, when he himself had so much growing to do.

    But what truly makes Peter and MJ's romance so unique is that MJ knew Peter was Spider-Man before she ever met Peter in person. It flips the entire traditional route whereby, the two meet and fall in love and then the love interest struggles with "finally learning the truth about their beloved," on its head. That's something that not even Clark and Lois's romance was able to accomplish. So, in that way, Mary Jane became the most important member of Peter's supporting cast because she was the person who knew Peter the best and even maybe knew him better than he knew himself. She was the first person to ever see Spider-Man.

    Add to that the facts that her hard-partying lifestyle was revealed to be a facade for her to put on to convince people that everything was fine, all while feeling incredible turmoil underneath, and that she didn't just play the ever-faithful girlfriend/wife of Peter Parker and actually demanded to be included in his world as Spider-Man and you have one of the most well-developed supporting characters in the history of comics. Even now, the comics pretty much recognize how MJ and Peter are best friends and that she is his confidant and him hers. So, how can fans not want it back?

    Is there anything that the REAL Mary Jane provides to Peter, that Garfield's Pete wasn't getting from his Gwen? If they had changed the Name to MJ would that have been fine?
    See what I just said above. But no, Gwen is the nice girl next door who is sweet and innocent and never pushes boundaries. Mary Jane was kind of the opposite. She pushed Peter's boundaries and challenged him to keep up with her.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 07-14-2017 at 08:36 PM.
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  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Cup O'Joe panel presently going on at D23

    https://www.newsarama.com/35365-d23-...joe-panel.html

    ,
    I kind of think this illustrates both the strength of Quesada and his weakness. Most guys in his position do well as, basically, baseball managers; find the right star, put him in the right place, and make good strategic decisions. They tend to flounder when they try and tell the star how to mechanically swing the bat or throw, and even worse when they try to step up to the plate themselves because they think they can do better. Quesada found a great slugger in Straczynski, gave him some decent guidance, some of questionable worth, than walked out and badgered him into several dead balls before Straczynski quit the plate.
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  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    As for Gwen? I only remember TWO major stories with her. Personally I found her kind of boring... but those two were Death of Capt. Stacy and The night Gwen Stacy Died.... That pretty much sums up Webb's Gwen. She was the nice girl who was a friend like Ultimate MJ... but that is so superficial that any teenage girl could fill that role. There wasn't anything that was truly... definitively MJ in Webb's Gwen. Even as a fan of the Ultimate Series (at least till Bagley left) I don't see Ultimate MJ working as a scientist for Osborne and being smarter than Peter... Webb took the high points from 616 Gwen, and then just filled in the rest with what fit his story.
    Agreed. In the classic comics Gwen Stacy was a science major, the daughter of a police captain who later died on duty, she dated Peter Parker and was eventually murdered by the Green Goblin. These are the elements that were adapted into the movies, along with her wardrobe clearly being modeled on the classic comics.

    There were several changes and additions to her character and her story, but the only one that came from Mary Jane was the fact that she learned Spider-Man's secret identity.

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But what truly makes Peter and MJ's romance so unique is that MJ knew Peter was Spider-Man before she ever met Peter in person. It flips the entire traditional route whereby, the two meet and fall in love and then the love interest struggles with "finally learning the truth about their beloved," on its head. That's something that not even Clark and Lois's romance was able to accomplish. So, in that way, Mary Jane became the most important member of Peter's supporting cast because she was the person who knew Peter the best and even maybe knew him better than he knew himself. She was the first person to ever see Spider-Man.
    It's certainly unique, but somehow the Spider-Man franchise managed to thrive for 27 years before this plot point came into play.

    It's also a plot point that has never been adapted into any outside media. Not once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    See what I just said above. But no, Gwen is the nice girl next door who is sweet and innocent and never pushes boundaries. Mary Jane was kind of the opposite. She pushed Peter's boundaries and challenged him to keep up with her.
    That's the character Gwen was morphed into, but not the Gwen that was originally introduced.


  7. #547
    Mighty Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It's certainly unique, but somehow the Spider-Man franchise managed to thrive for 27 years before this plot point came into play.

    It's also a plot point that has never been adapted into any outside media. Not once.
    Is that 'untold tales of Spider-man' retcon that showed up in the 90's? Because... I HATED that SOOOOO much. It was a retcon that dismissed the very basis for how Peter's very powers worked. It had long been established that Pete's Spider-sense would warn him anyone was spying on him. He'd frequently get buzzes if he was being spied on. Green Goblin had to develop a special gas to negate the spider-sense so he could spy out his identity.

    Claiming that MJ was watching through the window and saw him... that was garbage. Considering all the clues and possibilities that were presented over the years... not to mention his state after Gwen's Death and Spider-man's involvement... I have no problem with her figuring it out on her own and keeping the secret. But not that she spied on him from the window... That's more Mary-sue than Mary Jane ;P

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Is that 'untold tales of Spider-man' retcon that showed up in the 90's? Because... I HATED that SOOOOO much. It was a retcon that dismissed the very basis for how Peter's very powers worked. It had long been established that Pete's Spider-sense would warn him anyone was spying on him. He'd frequently get buzzes if he was being spied on. Green Goblin had to develop a special gas to negate the spider-sense so he could spy out his identity.

    Claiming that MJ was watching through the window and saw him... that was garbage. Considering all the clues and possibilities that were presented over the years... not to mention his state after Gwen's Death and Spider-man's involvement... I have no problem with her figuring it out on her own and keeping the secret. But not that she spied on him from the window... That's more Mary-sue than Mary Jane ;P
    It was referenced in Untold Tales, but it originated in 1989's Spider-Man: Parallel Lives, written by Gerry Conway.

    Who knew that staring out of windows would become integral to her and Peter's relationship history!

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It was referenced in Untold Tales, but it originated in 1989's Spider-Man: Parallel Lives, written by Gerry Conway.

    Who knew that staring out of windows would become integral to her and Peter's relationship history!
    I'm a bit confused; do you like Peter and Mary Jane together or not?

  10. #550
    Mighty Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I stand by it also as a creative person. Whatever I planned to do... but didn't get around to it, doesn't matter. I can have the biggest plans in the world, but if I blow it and it doesn't happen... it didn't happen.

    Keep in mind this whole conversation is a direct result of the statement "MJ is ESSENTIAL to the Spider-man mythos". I'm not anti-MJ or pro Gwen... I'm just pointing out the TONS of times that the Spider-man Mythos has been played with successfully with no Mary Jane in sight. Many of which were my personal favorite incarnations and a lot of others fans too.
    I kinda understand what you're getting at, but I still don't think it makes much sense. For the sake of being on the same page, what do you think intent of the creative staff means in the whole discussion?


    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    If you plan on introducing an element in the THIRD movie... it isn't essential. Imagine a Superman property that waited three movies to mention Krypton or Smallville (Kansas or otherwise). Lois Lane or Daily Planet... How about a Batman property that will someday get around to the Batcave or Alfred or Joker? Even Batman Begins and Batman V Superman had Joker attached in some way even without them being the main draw. I personally think it's criminal how much they bypass Robin... but there are a lot of things that if you don't include in Batman... it's not really Batman or Superman anymore.
    I have heard the case that, in order to get Mary Jane's story done properly, you need the Gwen Stacy backstory. I'm not sure I believe that (given that the original movies and Ultimate comics didn't and seemed to do just fine), but I can kinda see the point. Also, that does assume that all the essentials need to be in place from square one. For example, the idea of Captain America being a man out of time is essential to his character, but that's not part of the story in The First Avenger, since we're not focusing on that element there, if that makes any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    As for Gwen? I only remember TWO major stories with her. Personally I found her kind of boring... but those two were Death of Capt. Stacy and The night Gwen Stacy Died.... That pretty much sums up Webb's Gwen.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Webb's Gwen have a different personality and history leading up to the deaths by Goblin? Also, Spider-Man's connections with Capt. Stacy were very different as well. It seemed like they took the same starting idea but created different stories off it.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    She was the nice girl who was a friend like Ultimate MJ... but that is so superficial that any teenage girl could fill that role. There wasn't anything that was truly... definitively MJ in Webb's Gwen.
    I think there's at least one big thing, which I'll be getting to after a few other comments. Also, in the movies, Gwen wasn't a friend. While Peter had a crush on her when the film opened, it was shown that they'd never spoken to each other until after the bully incident and they started dating pretty soon after. So, they kinda went from strangers to a couple. In the Ultimate comics, Peter and MJ had been friends for a long time prior to the series beginning and still regarded each other as they best friend even after the friendship evolved into a romantic relationship, which was a different dynamic than Peter and Gwen had in the movies. (And yes, this does highlight a difference between the two characters, but there are similarities that I think outweigh stuff like this.)

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Even as a fan of the Ultimate Series (at least till Bagley left) I don't see Ultimate MJ working as a scientist for Osborne and being smarter than Peter... Webb took the high points from 616 Gwen, and then just filled in the rest with what fit his story.
    I think a case can be made that there are a lot of parallels between movie Gwen and Ultimate MJ. Some maybe coincidental (like how I'm sure that MJ being thrown off the bridge in both the original movie and Ultimate comic was happenstance born out of both series happening to make her the central leading lady), but there are some pretty interesting ones. And yes, there are notable differences even beyond Gwen Stacy being the super brainiac (Ultimate MJ has her classic abusive childhood while Gwen got along with her family, MJ had been friends with Peter for years before they got together while Gwen and Peter didn't know each other very well when they began to date), but it's still a very interesting examination:

    - While, as noted before, Ultimate MJ was not the "know-all-sciencey-stuff-needed-to-advance-the-plot" brainiac movie Gwen was, she was established in the early issues to be a bright student and have the reputation for it (USM#1). While that focus was dropped a bit (when she and Peter appeared in the Bendis-written Ultimate X-Men #34, there was a joke about Peter doing her homework for her in exchange for her help and few of the later issues in the series made a huge deal about her grades), both did start off on the idea that both Gwen and MJ had similar interests to Peter and could relate to him on that level (the DK Spider-Man guide outright stated that MJ's intelligence was one factor in Peter being attracted to her). (Also, bear in mind the idea of Gwen having any affinity for STEM stuff was not in the original 616 characterization. In fact, the only other place I'm aware that either Gwen or MJ having such characterizations was in the Spectacular cartoon. There it was only Gwen. However, the ASM movies were based on the Ultimate comics, not the Spectacular cartoon, and Ultimate had MJ, not Gwen, given a school-smarts personality.)

    - Both versions had them as high school sweethearts and seemed to be making the cases that they were in love for real (implied throughout the ASM movies with Gwen -- although I never bought it personally, best articulated by MJ in Miles Morales: The Ultimate Spider-Man #1). (Possibly coincidental.)

    - In both cases, Gwen/MJ are the ones to make the first move in regards to building a romantic relationship with Peter. MJ invited him out to a movie, which she saw as a date (USM #9), while Gwen invited him over to dinner with her family (ASM1).

    - Peter visiting Gwen in her room was something he also did a lot with MJ (USM#41, 154, Annual #3).

    - Peter chose to tell both of them that he was Spider-Man, rather than them finding out on their own (like MJ did in the classic comics) or never learning (like Gwen did in the classic comics, Dan Slott retcons be darned) and it was the catalyst of them actually becoming a couple (USM #13, ASM1).

    - A scene in ASM movie 1 has Peter and Gwen having a personal conversation in the football bleachers, which we also saw between Peter and MJ (USM #22), also established later to be "their" spot (USM #107).

    - When Peter broke up with Gwen for her own safety in ASM2, Gwen's perspective on that was much like the second breakup Peter and MJ had (starting USM #77, ending #105). Specifically see USM#82. (Possibly coincidental.)

    - Gwen getting in the middle of a fight between Spider-Man and a Goblin-ized Harry Osborn in movie 2 is eerily similar to the Hobgoblin story arc in USM (#72 - 77). (Possibly coincidental.)

    - Gwen running Electro over with a truck in ASM2 was first done by MJ with Green Goblin (USM #160).

    However, I think the biggest parallel is how the relationship they had with Peter Parker was setup, even beyond how they got together in the first place. Both of them, as mentioned before, were let in on his secret early on. Subsequently, they both served as an emotional anchor for him through his superhero career. They also helped him with the Spider-Man stuff in varying ways. Beyond MJ regularly keeping his suit in repair, see USM #28, 30, 69, 120, 122, 160, and Annual #3. The movies, obviously, were operating the lab equipment to make the Lizard cure (ASM1) and Electro-proofing the web shooters and pressing the off button on the power plant (ASM2).

    Movie Gwen's role in Peter's life, as shown in the movies, has no analogue with the 616 comics, Ultimate Gwen, any of the cartoons, the Spidey comics, etc. The closest analogue, as far as I can tell, is in fact Mary Jane's role in the Ultimate comics, as outlined above. Now, as characterization goes, I will concede that it's not the same (I think it's Emma Stone playing Emma Stone, to be honest) and I do think that Gwen lacked the depth and development that MJ got in the Ultimate comics (however, two couple hour movies over ten-ish years of comics is pretty lopsided in terms of "screen time"). But, that aside, the character's role in the story and their dynamic with Spider-Man are basically the same idea with creative variations. So, as outlined above, I think that is's fairly conclusive that Gwen Stacy, as depicted in the ASM movies, owes a lot to Mary Jane Watson, as written in the Ultimate comics, meaning that the latter character has defined the leading ladies in 99% of the Spider-Man movie franchise.
    Last edited by WebLurker; 07-14-2017 at 10:09 PM.

  11. #551
    Mighty Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I kinda understand what you're getting at, but I still don't think it makes much sense. For the sake of being on the same page, what do you think intent of the creative staff means in the whole discussion?.
    Honestly, not a whole lot. It's too malleable. What they say they intend today could be different 10 years from now. George Lucas is a famous for that. Revisionist history that he always intended despite what he actually produced and presented.

    For me, Whatever the grand, long-term plans are or were... don't matter if they don't make it into the finished project. Webb can say he planned on MJ showing up and being important... but nothing I've seen in the two movies show that. Compare that to something like the Green Lantern movie. Sinestro was intended to be the major enemy of the sequel that never happened... but he was shown arguing with the Guardians and ended the show wearing the yellow ring... It didn't happen, but the trail was there. If Webb had actually shown MJ and recreated some famous moments... then sure, I could see where he was headed. However as it is... He can say it was going to be MJ in the 3rd movie... or it could have been Black Cat. Or Silk. Or Ultimate Spider-woman/Peter Clone... Or he could have been revealed to be a spider-alien from another dimension....

    Random ideas shot back and forth in a brainstorming session just don't hold any water for me. You can just see that with all the 'supposed to be' ideas from the old X-Men. Mr. Sinister was a child... Gambit was a Summers brother... Cable was no Summer at all... Wolverine was an actual evolved wolverine... These didn't happen, they aren't canon...

    Now if Webb released a Director's cut of his movies with things twisted around and extra scenes added in... I'd change my opinion. But I believe final products have to be taken at face value.



    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I have heard the case that, in order to get Mary Jane's story done properly, you need the Gwen Stacy backstory. I'm not sure I believe that (given that the original movies and Ultimate comics didn't and seemed to do just fine), but I can kinda see the point. Also, that does assume that all the essentials need to be in place from square one. For example, the idea of Captain America being a man out of time is essential to his character, but that's not part of the story in The First Avenger, since we're not focusing on that element there, if that makes any sense..
    Agreed. MJ works just fine without Gwen. She may not get the growth that fans want, but my two favorite media MJ's were Ultimate and the 90's cartoon and there was no Gwen there.

    As for Cap? I think there is a difference between 'A man out of time' and 'A man from the 40's'. We need a Cap with the mindset and thoughts of WWII heroics... and we got that in First Avenger. He was a man out of time to US.. just not to the people in the show. Although 1) He was still portrayed as 'better' than everyone else in mentality... AND 2) they DID give us that ending with actually being out of time. So while not a traditional Cap story, I would argue that that 'essential' character was very well represented.



    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Webb's Gwen have a different personality and history leading up to the deaths by Goblin? Also, Spider-Man's connections with Capt. Stacy were very different as well. It seemed like they took the same starting idea but created different stories off it..
    Yeah, she wasn't 616 Gwen for sure. There was some serious modernizing going on, but that seems inevitable. From my memory she was more likeable than 616, but I'll admit I didn't read a ton with her in it. I believe there were more similarities to the classic 616 Capt Stacy and NGSD stories than there were in Any of the last 8 batman movies and his comic version

    It's the curse of constant modernizing. "IF" Gwen had been in High School with Peter... That's pretty much how it would have looked.


    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I think there's at least one big thing, which I'll be getting to after a few other comments. Also, in the movies, Gwen wasn't a friend. While Peter had a crush on her when the film opened, it was shown that they'd never spoken to each other until after the bully incident and they started dating pretty soon after. So, they kinda went from strangers to a couple. In the Ultimate comics, Peter and MJ had been friends for a long time prior to the series beginning and still regarded each other as they best friend even after the friendship evolved into a romantic relationship, which was a different dynamic than Peter and Gwen had in the movies. (And yes, this does highlight a difference between the two characters, but there are similarities that I think outweigh stuff like this.).


    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I think a case can be made that there are a lot of parallels between movie Gwen and Ultimate MJ. Some maybe coincidental (like how I'm sure that MJ being thrown off the bridge in both the original movie and Ultimate comic was happenstance born out of both series happening to make her the central leading lady), but there are some pretty interesting ones. And yes, there are notable differences even beyond Gwen Stacy being the super brainiac (Ultimate MJ has her classic abusive childhood while Gwen got along with her family, MJ had been friends with Peter for years before they got together while Gwen and Peter didn't know each other very well when they began to date), but it's still a very interesting examination
    Interesting breakdown. I haven't read a lot of those in years so I can't really comment too much on them. Maybe he was going for an ultimate MJ vibe... or maybe he was going for 'modernized High school kid' like Bendis and both ended up there. Peter was always the shy outcast so naturally the girl makes the first move now days... Hiding under the bleachers is just what kids do... You make some good points about the individual panels, but I'm not sure the similarities outweigh the differences.

    know-all-sciencey-stuff-needed-to-advance-the-plot.... Capt Stacy dying telling Pete to keep Gwen Safe... Failing to keep Gwen Safe... Not being friends before hand... these are big hurdles that say that Gwen was Gwen who was obviously Gwen... Pete Telling her his identity... Honestly didn't like that, but that's become a Comic movie trope this last decade or two. The number of movies where the Love interest does NOT get told who the hero is.... MAN they have dwindled. It's like people can't figure out how important secret identities are... Regardless of Bendis doing it USM... I believe that was going to happen regardless :-/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It's certainly unique, but somehow the Spider-Man franchise managed to thrive for 27 years before this plot point came into play.

    It's also a plot point that has never been adapted into any outside media. Not once.
    It was actually 22 years because it was revealed that MJ knew Peter was Spider-Man in #257 from 1984. But either way, who cares at which point in the history it was introduced or if its been in any media out of the comics? It was still introduced and its still a big part of their relationship.

    By the time it was introduced in the comics, MJ had already become pretty much the only love interest of Peter's with any real staying power. And by the time Parallel Lives came out, she was already his wife.

    That's the character Gwen was morphed into, but not the Gwen that was originally introduced.

    Again, not really relevant. Gwen still became a clingy, stereotypical girlfriend character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    It was actually 22 years because it was revealed that MJ knew Peter was Spider-Man in #257 from 1984.
    In #257 it was played as though MJ's suspicions had finally been confirmed, that she pieced it together over time.

    You were talking about the idea of her having known since before she ever met Peter. That idea wasn't introduced until 1989's Parallel Lives.

    But either way, who cares at which point in the history it was introduced or if its been in any media out of the comics? It was still introduced and its still a big part of their relationship.

    By the time it was introduced in the comics, MJ had already become pretty much the only love interest of Peter's with any real staying power. And by the time Parallel Lives came out, she was already his wife.
    We're trying to determine if Mary Jane is absolutely essential to telling good Spider-Man stories that feel like Spider-Man. In order to determine that we need to figure out what it is about MJ that makes her essential, that makes any part of the Spider-Man series she doesn't appear in false and insufficient.

    If her knowing Spider-Man's secret ID before she met Peter isn't the key feature then we're back to square one and need to figure out what is.

    Again, not really relevant. Gwen still became a clingy, stereotypical girlfriend character.
    You said Gwen was X not Y. I corrected you - Gwen was Y then became X.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Agreed. In the classic comics Gwen Stacy was a science major, the daughter of a police captain who later died on duty, she dated Peter Parker and was eventually murdered by the Green Goblin. These are the elements that were adapted into the movies, along with her wardrobe clearly being modeled on the classic comics.

    There were several changes and additions to her character and her story, but the only one that came from Mary Jane was the fact that she learned Spider-Man's secret identity.
    In the classic comics, Gwen loved Peter but hated Spider-Man. That was the dichotomy of their relationship. They removed that element in the ASM movies and replaced it with poor foreshadowing that Gwen was going to die. Gwen was never Peter's confidant. That element was borrowed from MJ (both Ultimate and classic), who we still see serving as Peter's best friend and closest confidant. Of course MJ was not always that (unless you specifically only count Ultimate). She became that over the course of story and characterization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    In the classic comics, Gwen loved Peter but hated Spider-Man. That was the dichotomy of their relationship. They removed that element in the ASM movies
    I know. I said there were several changes and additions

    Gwen was never Peter's confidant. That element was borrowed from MJ (both Ultimate and classic)
    I know. That's what I said.

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