View Poll Results: 10 Years Later, was the deal with Mephisto worth it?

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  • Yes

    37 20.11%
  • No

    147 79.89%
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  1. #586
    Mighty Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Did Spider-Man: Homecoming present Spider-Man in a recognisable form?
    I wrote a freaking testament about that in another thread, initiated by Vixx about the movie. I thinkt that it answer that question. A good chunk of that movie is basically the Ultimate Cartoon but less obnoxious and more enjoyable.

  2. #587
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    MJ is such a presence in the Spider-Man franchise that they felt the need to give another character her nickname to justify her existence. I mean, if that doesn't tell you something, I don't know what does.

  3. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vixx View Post



    I agree on the modern political environment - and would add they make most of their money mining / streamlining the past.

    They could replace her though - their attempts have been cheats; they want the benefits without the long slog. If you cloned every trait and detail, tested them on lab rats before rolling it out - you'd still need decades to of exposure and a generational audience shift to pull it off. MJ could be my grandkids Gwen.

    Additionally - because of MJ being so strong and kind of a blitzkrieg through the secondary cast; there are no candidatesxtgat could step up to even make the attempt as a foundation; except Felicia (maybe Silver Sable technically - but only if you hollowed her out to unrecognizable status); and even those have a lot of extra baggage because they are heros in their own right - not someone Peter leaves behind to Spiderman.

    Him being stuck in a an age band hurts too; because decades of work may translate to fractional book time.

    Felicia would kick ass in many situations MJ would need help, undermining Petes guilt about putting loved ones in risk.

    Please don't misunderstand - I don't think they should do this. The MJ dynamic might not be perfect to all but it was solid and classic. Anything other than a break is heavy handed, feels artificial, and at 10 years and no suitors - it feels like MJs hole is just getting more pronounced. Fill it or bring her back already.
    I see your point. Marvel can do whatever they want but they also know the consequences. If they actually did replace her with another character there would be massive fallout. In fact there already has been.

    I agree that at this point only Black Cat is MJ's closest rival and equal.

    I like your last sentence very much.

  4. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    You are not answering whether or not Peter is "essential" to tell a Spider-Man story at this point. Answer the question. Is Peter Parker essential to telling a Spider-Man story?
    Peter is THE Spider-Man, others may have claimed the name/title/mantle for a time but Peter is the one true Spider-Man. When Dick wore the cowl he was simply a stand-in for Bruce, and when Bruce came back he was the one true Batman. So yes Peter is essential to telling a Spider-Man man story because he is the MAIN character, the focal point, the mythos revolves around him and no one else. Even when Ben was "Spider-Man" for a time the narative was still tied to Peter. In the end you can get rid of every other character because they are supporting characters, they are not essential, the franchise will carry on. Peter is the only essential character because without him there is no mythos. MJ is/was the most important, significant, compelling supporting character in the franchise but she was not essential. Peter would still be the same heroic friendly neighborhood Spider-Man doing good regardless of MJ. If anything I would argue that uncle Ben is more essential than MJ.

  5. #590
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Peter is THE Spider-Man, others may have claimed the name/title/mantle for a time but Peter is the one true Spider-Man. When Dick wore the cowl he was simply a stand-in for Bruce, and when Bruce came back he was the one true Batman. So yes Peter is essential to telling a Spider-Man man story because he is the MAIN character, the focal point, the mythos revolves around him and no one else. Even when Ben was "Spider-Man" for a time the narative was still tied to Peter. In the end you can get rid of every other character because they are supporting characters, they are not essential, the franchise will carry on. Peter is the only essential character because without him there is no mythos. MJ is/was the most important, significant, compelling supporting character in the franchise but she was not essential. Peter would still be the same heroic friendly neighborhood Spider-Man doing good regardless of MJ. If anything I would argue that uncle Ben is more essential than MJ.
    People trying to define who is and isn't "essential" are being pretty silly, if I may speak frankly. You can do Spider-Man stories without Peter just fine. Under very strict interpretations, that means Peter isn't even essential to the Spider-Man franchise. (See how ridiculous it is?)

    Hell, we just had a whole movie that went out of its way to minimize Uncle Ben as much as possible, to the point that not only did they not say his name, they also didn't really say anything about his famous speech about power and responsibility. But nobody would seriously try to argue Uncle Ben isn't absolutely vital and essential to the Spider-Man franchise, right?

  6. #591
    Amazing Member farmernudie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I wouldn't say my opposition to OMD and its effects is centered around MJ; to be honest, while I'm a fan of the character and have her as the preferred Spider-Man love interest to me, I'm far more irritated at the message of OMD, it's direct effects on Spider-Man's status quo, and it's simple existence as a really *bad* story with a total reversal of Spider-Man's creed that's now intrinsic to the serialized adventures of Spider-Man.

    Let's start at the back and work our way up:

    -It's a bad, BAD, story. On a holistic level within the Marvel Universe, it's central argument that all these great powers and scientists can't save an old woman from a gunshot is laughably bad. The idea of sacrificing a healthy marriage to the devil in exchange for a contented old woman's life isn't "with great power comes great responsibility"; it's the makings of a villain's backstory. None of the story's tropes are noble, and you can feel that as well in the writing. It's impossible to respect a choice that is demonstrated *in-story* to have far more negative consequences, and where the method is clearly malevolent. And the story runs on internal logic both counter to the rest of the series and inconsistent within itself.

    -The central "benefit" to its change in the status quo is, ostensibly, that a single, sad-sack Peter operating in a throwback to his dating days while still somewhat dependent on his aunt is supposedly a boon to new readers, that it will attract thousands to his audience, and that it will make old readers return. I haven't seen that. And quite frankly, I really don't give a rat's butt about restarting the Parker Luck Soap Opera Of Romance. I have a very finite amount of patience for superhero romance, and I despise inorganic methods to attempt to prolong it; I dislike all cosmically retconned relationships in comics, because I don't need to see the Eternal Will They Or Won't They, let alone the Dating Show Ad Infinatum.

    -And the main message of OMD is really stupid: "If we convince ourselves that Spider-Man is broken in some way, try to fix him organically through writing, and then get proven wrong, that's alright; we'll just use a $#!++ier option to force to the change, no matter how stupid, illogical, or unneccesary it may be." I already despise most "fix what isn't broken" retcons; like in the New 52, I can see why they felt that Wonder Woman and Superman needed a remix, but they'd already fixed Flash and Green Lantern organically, and the Batfamily was flying high. Marvel, to their credit, have traditionally been far more willing to take risks and simply write intelligent status quo changes. And then came OMD, where they hammered a horrible story into the serialized story to attain a regressive status quo through cheap and ugly editorial fiat.
    Well said. I agree. The road Pete went down was more villianous than heroic.

    If OMD was a Star Wars story .. Anakin Parker went to the dark side at that point frankly.

    I can't imagine making a devil deal for ANY reason. Not to mention they typically unravel and don't turn out good. Not sure how this one changed history and created a bright new future for Pete.

    Every day elderly people who have lived long lives pass away for many various reasons. Extending their lives by giving your soul to the devil is not with great power comes great responsibility. It's a foolish sad sorry thing to do. A giant mistake. Period. Then you add the fact that he also gave away his marriage..his wife..everything they had or would have had. It's like wow, that's pretty pathetic of Pete. Like I said before, even Spawn and Ghost Rider have tried to one up the devil and their "deals" per say. Pete is just the devils lap dog.

    Lastly, is my butter essential to my waffle? Lots of essential debate here
    Last edited by farmernudie; 07-15-2017 at 08:16 PM.

  7. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If you're arguing sales to suggest that something is a poor decision, you're also arguing that sales would clearly be better if not for other changes.

    That's pretty dicey in this case, given other factors that would also affect a married Spider-Man.

    Technically, JMS's Amazing Spider-Man was at 72,000 copies a month before it had 21 straight issues of events (The Other, Civil War, Back in Black, One More Day.)

    There have been periods when Spider-Man sold better after Quesada's departure as EIC, so if anything happened to hurt sales, it's probably not his fault.

    Amazing Spider-Man has recently been the best-selling Marvel Universe title, so an argument that it should be doing a lot better has to take that into account. How much better than the best-seller do you expect the book to do?
    You mean the best seller out of a bunch of lesser in-house selling titles that are below or at 50,000? And it looks like the sells for June will be down in the 40's...Amazing has never sold these low amounts consistently before now.Why can't Amazing beat Batman,Superman or Star Wars? Hell...Amazing can't even crack the Top Ten anymore without a gimmick attached to it. And again...the best selling Marvel title is Star Wars and its best selling superhero book is Amazing...but yet Amazing can't beat it's competition at all says a lot that something major has to be done with that book if it wishes to gain new and disgruntled readers.Amazing only beating out its own in-house titles is not really something to brag about IMHO.

  8. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    You mean the best seller out of a bunch of lesser in-house selling titles that are below or at 50,000? And it looks like the sells for June will be down in the 40's...Amazing has never sold these low amounts consistently before now.Why can't Amazing beat Batman,Superman or Star Wars? Hell...Amazing can't even crack the Top Ten anymore without a gimmick attached to it. And again...the best selling Marvel title is Star Wars and its best selling superhero book is Amazing...but yet Amazing can't beat it's competition at all says a lot that something major has to be done with that book if it wishes to gain new and disgruntled readers.Amazing only beating out its own in-house titles is not really something to brag about IMHO.
    And you think if the marriage was reinstated that Amazing would be the #1 selling book on the market? You guys really got MJ up on a pedestal. Seriously believe that a supporting character has that much clout, that adding MJ would propel Amazing past Batman? Don't you think you're over reaching and over hyping MJ's pull, just a tiny bit.

  9. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    And you think if the marriage was reinstated that Amazing would be the #1 selling book on the market? You guys really got MJ up on a pedestal. Seriously believe that a supporting character has that much clout, that adding MJ would propel Amazing past Batman? Don't you think you're over reaching and over hyping MJ's pull, just a tiny bit.
    Who is saying or implying that? Reinstating the marriage wouldn't automatically propel the title's sales (in the long term anyway), but I highly doubt it would hurt them either.

  10. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    You mean the best seller out of a bunch of lesser in-house selling titles that are below or at 50,000? And it looks like the sells for June will be down in the 40's...Amazing has never sold these low amounts consistently before now.Why can't Amazing beat Batman,Superman or Star Wars? Hell...Amazing can't even crack the Top Ten anymore without a gimmick attached to it. And again...the best selling Marvel title is Star Wars and its best selling superhero book is Amazing...but yet Amazing can't beat it's competition at all says a lot that something major has to be done with that book if it wishes to gain new and disgruntled readers.Amazing only beating out its own in-house titles is not really something to brag about IMHO.
    Do digital copies count toward these numbers?

  11. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    And you think if the marriage was reinstated that Amazing would be the #1 selling book on the market? You guys really got MJ up on a pedestal. Seriously believe that a supporting character has that much clout, that adding MJ would propel Amazing past Batman? Don't you think you're over reaching and over hyping MJ's pull, just a tiny bit.
    Well, people have said that the marriage and MJ were killing the sale numbers.

  12. #597
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    You guys really got MJ up on a pedestal.
    Considering many aspects of the Spidey medium put her on a considerably high podium, I don't see why we shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Seriously believe that a supporting character has that much clout
    The sales of the inaugural Renew Your Vows series validates that belief

  13. #598

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    You mean the best seller out of a bunch of lesser in-house selling titles that are below or at 50,000? And it looks like the sells for June will be down in the 40's...Amazing has never sold these low amounts consistently before now.Why can't Amazing beat Batman,Superman or Star Wars? Hell...Amazing can't even crack the Top Ten anymore without a gimmick attached to it. And again...the best selling Marvel title is Star Wars and its best selling superhero book is Amazing...but yet Amazing can't beat it's competition at all says a lot that something major has to be done with that book if it wishes to gain new and disgruntled readers.Amazing only beating out its own in-house titles is not really something to brag about IMHO.
    If Amazing beats its in-house competition that suggests the problem with the book may not be with something specific to that title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vixx View Post
    Do digital copies count toward these numbers?
    No, those are the print issues sold by the distributor Diamond Comics. It doesn't include trade paperbacks, or digital issues, as well as any print issues that aren't distributed by Diamond.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  14. #599
    Amazing Member farmernudie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    And you think if the marriage was reinstated that Amazing would be the #1 selling book on the market? You guys really got MJ up on a pedestal. Seriously believe that a supporting character has that much clout, that adding MJ would propel Amazing past Batman? Don't you think you're over reaching and over hyping MJ's pull, just a tiny bit.
    I don't think it's even nearly that simple. While I do believe "some" damage was done by OMD and the attitudes at the time telling customers to just stop buying, instead of just listening and kindly agreeing to disagree on a mandate.

    Just reinstating the marriage won't magically fix things. A lot of time has gone by. People change, become indifferent etc. I know I collected faithfully for decades every issue every spider title. Now I buy the occasional tpb. My business went elsewhere due to the unbelievable rudeness more than the mandate. Just returned to reading the boards again even after years. The OMD time period and the staff towards the customers was unlike anything I have ever seen honestly.

  15. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonmp93 View Post
    Well, people have said that the marriage and MJ were killing the sale numbers.
    I've got to confess that I was only reading library copies of Spider-Man by JMS before OMD, and OMD is part of the reason why I didn't become a major Spider-Man buyer when I finally a) had disposable income on a weekly basis and b) had access to a comic supplier. So I've got to ask: was that a fandom opinion? An editorial one? Was it backed up by sales, etc?

    Because I can't be really included as a knowledgeable first hand witness. My knowledge basically goes: Mary Jane "died" so that the cheap TPB I got from a garage sale could have a busty blonde neighbor flirt with him, then MJ came back but left for "reasons", then I read an absolutely awesome and hilarious issue with MJ, Cap, and DOOM! guest starring where she cam back and got together with him, then other issues happened, and suddenly a *****y story was spinning out of Civil War that felt like a drunk psychopath's version of Flash: Ignition. And I had no desire to read follow up stories until a bit later when I heard about some of the villain stuff going on, but still didn't buy because it sounded like they were still trying to milk stupid romantic drama again and I saw people metaphorically crossing themselves and spitting whenever someone said "Carlie Cooper."

    I mean, is there genuinely a huge number of (potential and real) comic readers who despise married superheroes? Because people have used that idea to regress dozens of heroes, but I never seem to see the corresponding title wave of readers to prove the idea true, and there always seems to be more annoying cliché and predictable romantic arcs in the comics afterwards, ones which no one gets invested in because they *just* sent a message not to, and because they tend to be really, really shallow.

    Again, my main problem with cosmically erasing marriages is a bit more firm than my love for specific love interests. And when I look at the most sophisticated and well thought out arguments against Spider-Man pre-OMD, that he's too well off, too settled, too happy, etc., I can't help but think that isn't a problem that can't be solved while keeping the marriage. And honestly, if you want some tension and conflict in his love-life, you might honestly be striking new ground by actually writing a marriage with an honest bumpy period. It still boggles my mind that someone can look at a well resolved and nstitutionalized character arc, and say "Whelp, we've got to erase any memory of this and go back to the same stale stuff we had twenty years ago."
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