View Poll Results: 10 Years Later, was the deal with Mephisto worth it?

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  • Yes

    37 20.11%
  • No

    147 79.89%
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  1. #631

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    But it has not aged well. A CBR article even called it worse than OMD.
    That's one guy's opinion. You will always find people who dislike any given story. The long term success of Superior Spider-Man will be based on other factors.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  2. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    But it has not aged well. A CBR article even called it worse than OMD.
    I remember reading some arcs thinking - well at least he's got MJ. He could always chuck it all and accept a pretty solid happy life.

    The great+ stories always balanced all the different pillars in Peters life in a satisfying way...

    Family
    Spiderman
    Supporting cast
    Peter
    Work

    They kind of gutted the classic supporting cast over the years in a couple of ways - even if you get SSM 200; Harry's corpse isn't a great villain, and We're about one or two arcs from "oh hi Gwenclone, what's the last thing you remember?" They've been depleted faster than replaced.

    Newspapers, work and photo stuff took a hit because it's outdated by real world stuff - but nothing has been as satisfying or stable.

    Spiderman isn't the wise ass loner type defender of NY - the MCU practically demands you shoot his ass into space if that's where the Avengers are and you can pull it off

    His family has always been really small and the most fragile - if you promote someone, it's usually from the supporting cast and you can only repeat so much super final ultimate unequaled event before you either run out of people he cares about - or we start to think they are just dumb for getting into it or not figuring it out.

    Peter pulls from all these areas - if they are hurting, he inches to just being Batman.

    It's been a decent, safe read for a long time - just not must head; think part of it is the formulas a bit off and the safety net was removed.

  3. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    That's one guy's opinion. You will always find people who dislike any given story. The long term success of Superior Spider-Man will be based on other factors.
    Which factors do you think will decide the success of the story long term?

  4. #634

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Which factors do you think will decide the success of the story long term?
    It's going to be based on the number of people who remember it fondly, and the new readers who make the decision to seek it out or not.

    It has some similarities to Knightfall, which has remained available in TPB form for some time, and remains one of the most popular Batman stories. I think it has some comparative advantages (Doc Ock is a better character than Azrael, the story isn't as padded, and there's one main writer.)

    When popularity is determined, it tends to be based on how many people really like something (IE- who is willing to say it's one of their favorite comics) with the non-votes counting the same regardless of whether they viciously hated the story, were indifferent to it, or liked it but not enough to put it in their top ten.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  5. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    It's going to be based on the number of people who remember it fondly, and the new readers who make the decision to seek it out or not.

    It has some similarities to Knightfall, which has remained available in TPB form for some time, and remains one of the most popular Batman stories. I think it has some comparative advantages (Doc Ock is a better character than Azrael, the story isn't as padded, and there's one main writer.)

    When popularity is determined, it tends to be based on how many people really like something (IE- who is willing to say it's one of their favorite comics) with the non-votes counting the same regardless of whether they viciously hated the story, were indifferent to it, or liked it but not enough to put it in their top ten.
    Agree -

    Debated classics with friends a while back and came up with 2 camps

    First - is just a good book that happens to be illustrated. I think Sandman 1-8 by Neil Gaiman is like that. You don't have to like the medium to like it - or if you are marginally familiar with charectors - watchmen, killing joke, dark night, etc.

    Lot of independents come to mind here

    Second - it's an encapsulated representation of the best of the charector - if i found a kid in the Amazon - i could hand them this to represent the series and be in pretty good shape.

    Lot gets separated into popular stuff that sells - which may be good or bad - but isnt classic ( lot of serial collected works)

  6. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The main time Amazing Spider-Man's been beaten by another Marvel Universe ongoing title is following a relaunch on that title, but the numbers for those tend to go down soon enough.

    It's possible X-Men: Blue will be the exception to that rule, though it's early to tell right now.

    Any recent decline in ASM sales is unlikely to be due to the response to a story that came out a decade ago.
    You can make all the excuses you want...but the truth of the matter is that Amazing is in trouble and that readers are being turned off which is leading to Retailers cutting their orders for the title itself significantly.

  7. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyedyeoff10 View Post
    Yeah, the biggest change I feel is that MJ would've been one of the people most determined to figure out the truth behind what happened to Peter.
    And that is why her character was dumbed down so as to NOT figure it out or tell that something was seriously wrong with Peter and that he was acting very odd and out of character.

  8. #638

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    You can make all the excuses you want...but the truth of the matter is that Amazing is in trouble and that readers are being turned off which is leading to Retailers cutting their orders for the title itself significantly.
    I can understand that pretty much every Marvel book is in trouble, but you're arguing in bad faith if you claim that Amazing Spider-Man is doing worse than the rest.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  9. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I can understand that pretty much every Marvel book is in trouble, but you're arguing in bad faith if you claim that Amazing Spider-Man is doing worse than the rest.
    For a flagship title that should be getting higher numbers than it has been and appears to be growing worse is not something to be cheered. When your flagship title is barely pushing above 50,000 monthly and falling it doesn't matter if its outselling some of it's own in-house titles...it highllights my point even more when that same title can't be competitive like it used too. It signifies that the flagship title of Amazing is in trouble...and so is Marvel as a whole IMHO. i'm not arguing that Amazing is doing worse than others...I'm arguing that it isn't doing much better than it should be.

  10. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    For a flagship title that should be getting higher numbers than it has been and appears to be growing worse is not something to be cheered. When your flagship title is barely pushing above 50,000 monthly and falling it doesn't matter if its outselling some of it's own in-house titles...it highllights my point even more when that same title can't be competitive like it used too. It signifies that the flagship title of Amazing is in trouble...and so is Marvel as a whole IMHO. i'm not arguing that Amazing is doing worse than others...I'm arguing that it isn't doing much better than it should be.
    How do we know that it should be doing better?

    And before you say that they used to sell a lot more, I'd point out that using yesterday's market to examine today's market is not really that good a yardstick. Outside) factors change the overall health of the industry. (In other words, is it possible that the comic book market has changed enough that the numbers you think are bad are actually healthy?

  11. #641
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    I'm having Get him to the Greek flashbacks - picturing the marvel creative staff getting lectured about cugaroos and units by Puff Daddy

    By chance did someone create a hero called Chocolate Daddy? :x

    I guess in my analogy ... RYV would be... Aldus? ...

  12. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    How do we know that it should be doing better?

    And before you say that they used to sell a lot more, I'd point out that using yesterday's market to examine today's market is not really that good a yardstick. Outside) factors change the overall health of the industry. (In other words, is it possible that the comic book market has changed enough that the numbers you think are bad are actually healthy?
    What is the Market? Is not the market the consumer? Isn't it the consumer who drives the market? Examining the sales of the past proves that the current consumer has turned away from comics as a source of entertainment and has declined significantly and not grown.Many other factors also attribute to these problems including the high price of books, a lack of wider distribution of product, a lack of good story telling,negative changes to characters, and the rise in the speculator market which the comic industry now seems to mainly serve over it's readership.Overall, the whole comic industry is being affected by this... not just Amazing it's true. However, some titles are being affected by it more than others at this time...with Amazing being a prominent one.Using the sales of the past is a valid yard stick since it shows us plainly the drop in the consumer market and how it is affecting the comics industry. The solution is in gaining new readership...and that requires multiple tactics IMHO.
    1.}Lower costs of the product.
    2'}Increase distribution outside of comic shops.
    3.]Decrease the level of participation of the Specualtors and get back to serving the actual readership.
    4.}Rely less on gimmicks.
    If the Speculator market should shift away from comics in large enough numbers then you will have another crash of the market...this is what worries me most if this speculator market cannot be outnumbered by readers {the actual real consumer}.
    Amazings numbers are indicative of this decline that we are seeing throughout the market and I have been using it as a marker in highlighting this growing decline since it represents a flagship book that should be easily commanding 80,000 to 90,000 a month consistently. Amazing's numbers should not be fluctuating like we are seeing...which tells me that it is being artificially boosted and supported by the speculator market and not in it's readership.Popular titles just do not gain and lose thousands of readers overnight...they gain and lose thousands of speculators over night.
    The speculator market is destroying the industry once again like it did before in the 90's... and the industry as a whole is doing very little to nothing at all to address this issue...to it's own detriment!
    These are the "changes" we have in our current market...but in reality IMHO it is just a repeat of the same changes that affected the industry in the 90's and lead to it's crash, and these current sales numbers are not "healthy" at all by any measure.
    If we had the total sales data of digital sales throughout the year it would give us a better indication of the current market but we do not and have to rely on incomplete data. But the data we do have is very troubling.

  13. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    What is the Market? Is not the market the consumer? Isn't it the consumer who drives the market? Examining the sales of the past proves that the current consumer has turned away from comics as a source of entertainment and has declined significantly and not grown.Many other factors also attribute to these problems including the high price of books, a lack of wider distribution of product, a lack of good story telling,negative changes to characters, and the rise in the speculator market which the comic industry now seems to mainly serve over it's readership.Overall, the whole comic industry is being affected by this... not just Amazing it's true. However, some titles are being affected by it more than others at this time...with Amazing being a prominent one.Using the sales of the past is a valid yard stick since it shows us plainly the drop in the consumer market and how it is affecting the comics industry. The solution is in gaining new readership...and that requires multiple tactics IMHO.
    1.}Lower costs of the product.
    2'}Increase distribution outside of comic shops.
    3.]Decrease the level of participation of the Specualtors and get back to serving the actual readership.
    4.}Rely less on gimmicks.
    If the Speculator market should shift away from comics in large enough numbers then you will have another crash of the market...this is what worries me most if this speculator market cannot be outnumbered by readers {the actual real consumer}.
    Amazings numbers are indicative of this decline that we are seeing throughout the market and I have been using it as a marker in highlighting this growing decline since it represents a flagship book that should be easily commanding 80,000 to 90,000 a month consistently. Amazing's numbers should not be fluctuating like we are seeing...which tells me that it is being artificially boosted and supported by the speculator market and not in it's readership.Popular titles just do not gain and lose thousands of readers overnight...they gain and lose thousands of speculators over night.
    The speculator market is destroying the industry once again like it did before in the 90's... and the industry as a whole is doing very little to nothing at all to address this issue...to it's own detriment!
    These are the "changes" we have in our current market...but in reality IMHO it is just a repeat of the same changes that affected the industry in the 90's and lead to it's crash, and these current sales numbers are not "healthy" at all by any measure.
    If we had the total sales data of digital sales throughout the year it would give us a better indication of the current market but we do not and have to rely on incomplete data. But the data we do have is very troubling.
    Without digital numbers, or a few similar companies (choosen by demographics) it's impossible to determine root cause - lot of global reasons to lose readership in print at that rate.

    Cost could be a big one; but which segment is feeling it most? How much is a single physical book vs a subscription? Etc

    Netflix may have been shipping out less DVd envelopes over the last 5 years - but media consumption and their model has changed.

    I'm just guessing their primary driver these days is licensing, and while it wouldn't be good they likely could do very well on paring way, way back on titles - financially speaking ( although it would cause problems with market share)

    I'm sure they sell a lot of action figures and lunch boxes for more modern creations that aren't in the MCU of classic.

  14. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    What is the Market? Is not the market the consumer? Isn't it the consumer who drives the market? Examining the sales of the past proves that the current consumer has turned away from comics as a source of entertainment and has declined significantly and not grown.Many other factors also attribute to these problems including the high price of books, a lack of wider distribution of product, a lack of good story telling,negative changes to characters, and the rise in the speculator market which the comic industry now seems to mainly serve over it's readership.
    Given that ASM is still on top of the (sinking) bone pile, I find it hard to argue that reader's don't like the stories or direction of the series. Now some people don't care for it (you and I are among them), but if the fanbase as a whole didn't like it, would the series be doing as well as it is in the current comics market climate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    Overall, the whole comic industry is being affected by this... not just Amazing it's true. However, some titles are being affected by it more than others at this time...with Amazing being a prominent one.Using the sales of the past is a valid yard stick since it shows us plainly the drop in the consumer market and how it is affecting the comics industry. The solution is in gaining new readership...and that requires multiple tactics IMHO.
    Fair point. However, I'm raising the question if the lower numbers are the new normal and how much of the drop is the industry's fault. I took economics in college and I recall that other factors affect sales of specific products. Case in point, in a recession, people are less likely to buy recreational items (such as comics), not because they don't want them anymore, but because they need to put that money to other stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    1.}Lower costs of the product.
    2'}Increase distribution outside of comic shops.
    3.]Decrease the level of participation of the Specualtors and get back to serving the actual readership.
    4.}Rely less on gimmicks.
    Maybe. I think more advertising and features to aid new readers in navigating the complicated history of crossovers, re-numbering, and backlog would help. I've found that I need to work and do my own research to make sense of the stuff I'm interested in, much less know it exists, and working for entertainment is a sure way to make someone loose interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    If the Speculator market should shift away from comics in large enough numbers then you will have another crash of the market...this is what worries me most if this speculator market cannot be outnumbered by readers {the actual real consumer}.
    For reference, what is the "speculator market?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    Amazings numbers are indicative of this decline that we are seeing throughout the market and I have been using it as a marker in highlighting this growing decline since it represents a flagship book that should be easily commanding 80,000 to 90,000 a month consistently. Amazing's numbers should not be fluctuating like we are seeing...which tells me that it is being artificially boosted and supported by the speculator market and not in it's readership.Popular titles just do not gain and lose thousands of readers overnight...they gain and lose thousands of speculators over night.
    That again makes the assumption again that ASM should be selling at specific figure X. How do we know that it's supposed to be that high? Comics are a niche medium, aren't they? And not everyone likes the "popular" stuff.

    Another thing worth noting, the sales models don't take into account those who only buy the trade paperbacks, digital versions, and used copies. So, it's not a complete picture in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    The speculator market is destroying the industry once again like it did before in the 90's... and the industry as a whole is doing very little to nothing at all to address this issue...to it's own detriment!
    These are the "changes" we have in our current market...but in reality IMHO it is just a repeat of the same changes that affected the industry in the 90's and lead to it's crash, and these current sales numbers are not "healthy" at all by any measure.
    If we had the total sales data of digital sales throughout the year it would give us a better indication of the current market but we do not and have to rely on incomplete data. But the data we do have is very troubling.
    Maybe comics role as a big piece of entertainment media is done. Maybe it's scaled down because other stuff (superhero movies?) have replaced them. Maybe this is what the industry is now.

  15. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The comic was successful as is. A significant change might hurt the end result, by upsetting the combination of elements that led to the initial product.
    If you're thinking I'd want to suddenly retroactively change the story *now*, I'm not. My argument is that there's a decent chance that not only *could* Superior Spider-man have existed with a married Spider-man, it might have had a greater dramatic potential than it did. If OMD were undone, I wouldn't actually want them to go back and start retelling stories; doing that in what's ostensibly the same continuity is a really risky idea with an increased chance of failure (just look at the successively worse Trigon arcs for Teen Titans). My point is that SpOck does not require single Pete; trying to say you wouldn't have had a major experimental story like that without OMD isn't a hard truth.

    I will say that it's a bit plausible that Marvel would be more likely to baulk at the idea of having SpOck exist when MJ is married to Pete, but not necessarily that much more than they must have initially treated SpOck in the first place; a "significant change", if you don't mind me using your words in a new context, is how comics remain fresh and keep some kind of forward momentum and evolve as time goes on. That's what comic book marriages are; significant changes that should, in theory, lead to dynamic new for tiers of storytelling opening up. The issue is conservative storytelling, not in the political sense, but in the desire to play it safe and stick to known formulas with a strict, dogmatic rigidity.

    Creators, or more generally editors, convince themselves that either there is no drama or engaging character work in a marriage (a truly laughable idea that gets reinforced by movies and tv avoiding it like the plague) or that it's too risky, which is kind of cowardly. That's why readers have to be dragged through the same plotlines over and over again.
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