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  1. #181
    Incredible Member Inversed's Avatar
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    I think the reason why Spider-Man doesn't work on a team for most people is that majority of the time, like some people have said, is that he always get treated as the goofy character while everyone else plays the straight man, criticizing him for his quips and not treating him with respect.

    The most recent Avengers is the perfect example, where despite bankrolling the Avengers, giving them a place to stay, and proving in the past to be of use, the rest of the team wants nothing to do with him, and Nadia flat out despises him, this time for absolutely no reason.

    I think that's why Spider-Man/Deadpool works so well, is that for once Spider-Man is playing the straight-annoyed man to Deadpool, it's something different.
    Current Reading List: Sonic The Hedgehog, Sonic Universe, Spider-Gwen, Unbelievable Gwenpool, Hawkeye, Hulk, U.S.Avengers, Amazing Spider-Man, Secret Empire, Secret Warriors, I Am Groot
    DC: Green Lanterns, Batgirl, Batman, Superman

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Honestly, I've always hated this mentality of why Peter shouldn't be an Avenger. It basically tries to place him in amber so that he always remains within the same status. Spider-Man may have been the underdog but over the years he's risen from just being distrusted by the public to a loved and admired hero within New York. While there may come plot beats that bring back some distrust, he's not the same as he had been way back.
    This brings to mind something Christopher Priest was talking about on his blog last month.

    So, I’m reading all of this hoopla online about the Titans crossover event and how terribly I handled Damian and OG Wally and why didn’t I know this thing happened on page 6 of Obscure Comics #12 back in 2004. Okay, I heard you.

    And now what? So, Damian is (apparently) no longer a little shit. He is thoughtful and more mature and less impulsive, less self-centered. Great. I got it wrong. And now what? What do we do with a character after we’ve smoothed out all of the rough edges and rounded off all the corners?

    Wally *doesn’t* have a heart problem. Gotcha. And now what? How do we make OG Wally relevant or even interesting? I’m not trying to pick a fight or insult anybody, I’m really asking: and now what? What do the fans actually want? They seem to want their heroes to be perfect and problem-free.

    They also seem to want the writers, or at least me, to have read a decade worth of comics before putting their favorite characters into a story. I don’t have time to read 100 comics. I don’t know any working writer who does. I can read, maybe, ten. And I will portray the character the way he or she is being portrayed now, today, currently, not what was done years or even months before.

    It’s entirely possible that I’m missing the point fans are trying to make. I *am* listening, but this is a mystery to me. The impression I am forming is fans want their characters to evolve into flat, lifeless droids who, I guess, have adventures wherein their decisions are always spot-on, they are always portrayed in a heroic light, and nobody ever gets damaged. I don’t intend that to be mean-spirited. That literally is my takeaway from all the crosstalk I am seeing.
    The rest of the blog post can be read here: http://lamerciepark.com/wp/?p=606

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    This brings to mind something Christopher Priest was talking about on his blog last month.

    The rest of the blog post can be read here: http://lamerciepark.com/wp/?p=606
    The last part of that Priest quote you posted is so dead on:

    "The impression I am forming is fans want their characters to evolve into flat, lifeless droids who, I guess, have adventures wherein their decisions are always spot-on, they are always portrayed in a heroic light, and nobody ever gets damaged. I don’t intend that to be mean-spirited. That literally is my takeaway from all the crosstalk I am seeing."

    So many times I see fans upset at a writer because a character makes a mistake within a story or is defeated or is anything less than 100% right or heroic. And my thought is always - "what kind of utterly boring character are you looking to read about?". I feel like these people would just be better of playing with an action figure where they can imagine these mistake-free, perfectly heroic characters with no drama to their lives, just always fighting and winning. Or just play a video game where that character is represented but has no inner life.

    Particularly with Spider-Man I really don't get the urge to see a version of that character who never makes a misstep, who never fails, who is never seen in an unflattering light. It's so key to Spider-Man's humanity and humility that he never be perfect, that he trip himself up on a regular basis, that I don't get how anyone ever became a Spider-Man fan in the first place if they want to see a version of him with all the flaws smoothed over. The flaws are what make him enduring - not the spider-powers.

    Take his ability to make mistakes away, give him too much respect, stop pulling the rug out from under him, and it's not really Spider-Man anymore.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The last part of that Priest quote you posted is so dead on:

    "The impression I am forming is fans want their characters to evolve into flat, lifeless droids who, I guess, have adventures wherein their decisions are always spot-on, they are always portrayed in a heroic light, and nobody ever gets damaged. I don’t intend that to be mean-spirited. That literally is my takeaway from all the crosstalk I am seeing."

    So many times I see fans upset at a writer because a character makes a mistake within a story or is defeated or is anything less than 100% right or heroic. And my thought is always - "what kind of utterly boring character are you looking to read about?". I feel like these people would just be better of playing with an action figure where they can imagine these mistake-free, perfectly heroic characters with no drama to their lives, just always fighting and winning. Or just play a video game where that character is represented but has no inner life.

    Particularly with Spider-Man I really don't get the urge to see a version of that character who never makes a misstep, who never fails, who is never seen in an unflattering light. It's so key to Spider-Man's humanity and humility that he never be perfect, that he trip himself up on a regular basis, that I don't get how anyone ever became a Spider-Man fan in the first place if they want to see a version of him with all the flaws smoothed over. The flaws are what make him enduring - not the spider-powers.

    Take his ability to make mistakes away, give him too much respect, stop pulling the rug out from under him, and it's not really Spider-Man anymore.
    I haven't come across anyone asking for Spider-Man to be "perfect", just better written. The current volume seems to have polarized a lot of people.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    Yeah...I've never liked seeing Spidey on a Team...he works best IMO on his own at street level.
    What about a street-level team?

    In the Ultimate comics, they did a couple stories where Spider-Man got involved with other street-level superheroes during gang wars.

    While it started after Miles had taken over as Spider-Man, All-New Ultimates centered around a team of young superheroes dealing with street-level crime, a set-up I could've seen working with Peter Parker's Spider-Man.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masked Guy View Post
    I haven't come across anyone asking for Spider-Man to be "perfect", just better written. The current volume seems to have polarized a lot of people.
    So what? So some fans don't like it. Other fans love it. Or at least like it.

    If the internet was around when Gerry Conway was on ASM, his run would be "polarizing" as well, to say the least.

    When fans say they want something to be "better written", it usually means they want it "blander" and "safer" because they're always reacting to some storyline or character decision that shook something up. Slott's run is polarizing because he's taken chances. He's done things that some fans believe that he shouldn't have done, like Superior Spider-Man. Or he hasn't done things that some fans insist that he has to do, like restore the marriage.

    And whenever a fan gets irate that Peter has made a mistake, it is essentially asking that Peter be perfect. "Why didn't he foresee this problem?" "Why didn't he know _______ would happen?" and so on. It's like they don't get that screw-ups are Peter's thing.

  7. #187
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    i have no problem with him being street level when he has to be as he started out that way and gained his own rogues gallery but the thing is that he's also had to face villains from the other teams with no back up. I mean who can forget when he faced off against Juggernaut or Sinister? Held off Firelord or Hulk before back up arrives? or when he bails out the F4 against Doom or Annihilus? Over the years he was made to face off against a lot of opponents that were in some cases out of his league and left bloody and beaten and this was before he was made a member of the Avengers or the Foundation. Spider-man will always be the underdog in the fight but i never bet against him, i don't need him to be respected every hour of every day but he is a better hero than most of the Avengers ever were and are and the current run just makes me really question why they need to always make him look like the fool after all he has accomplished? I mean he shouldn't have to take crap from a damn rookie like Nadia who hasn't done squat except whine about him and lick Doom boots like a toadie. Frankly him returning to being street level may be good, but it needs to be done right and i feel Slott won't give us that. The character deserves better treatment than what has been given over the last few years until now, i don't need him to be 100% Grade A perfect... i just need him to be the hero we all grew up reading about, imperfections and all.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    So what? So some fans don't like it. Other fans love it. Or at least like it.

    If the internet was around when Gerry Conway was on ASM, his run would be "polarizing" as well, to say the least.

    When fans say they want something to be "better written", it usually means they want it "blander" and "safer" because they're always reacting to some storyline or character decision that shook something up. Slott's run is polarizing because he's taken chances. He's done things that some fans believe that he shouldn't have done, like Superior Spider-Man. Or he hasn't done things that some fans insist that he has to do, like restore the marriage.

    And whenever a fan gets irate that Peter has made a mistake, it is essentially asking that Peter be perfect. "Why didn't he foresee this problem?" "Why didn't he know _______ would happen?" and so on. It's like they don't get that screw-ups are Peter's thing.
    Conway's run was very polarizing when it first occurred, but is widely viewed as one of the classic, definitive takes on the character now. Without the passage of time, we can't really say the same will happen with Slott's run yet. Maybe it will come to be viewed as classic, or maybe it will be viewed as a misfire. Who is to say? Opinions seem a little too split on it at the moment.

    I think it's a rather broad and somewhat baseless accusation to say that all or even most of the dissatisfied fans want things to be "blander" and "safer". Many just don't think the writing is good. Personally, I have strongly disliked Volumes 3 and 4 simply because I feel they've been very boring and poorly written. And when Peter makes a "mistake" (like picking a pointless and stupid fight with Iron Man in Power Play), fans don't necessarily berate it because Peter messed up, but rather because they view it as forced and badly written. I understand that you and plenty of other people are enjoying this current volume, but don't put all the detractors in the same box simply because you disagree with them.

    Also, I'm tired of Slott's fans constantly accusing his critics of disliking his work simply because he won't reinstate the marriage. I'm a marriage fan and have liked multiple stories of his in the past; I just don't like his current work.

    I'm not attempting to pick a fight here; I just don't like when criticism is written off. I'm glad you're enjoying the current volume though.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masked Guy View Post
    I'm not attempting to pick a fight here; I just don't like when criticism is written off. I'm glad you're enjoying the current volume though.
    Deflecting criticism when you enjoy something is a natural human response. Nobody likes to feel like they're reading something that is perceived as dumb or unsatisfactory by others because it in turn makes them wonder if they're just as dumb for appreciating it.

    I'm not saying everyone feels like that, plenty can still pick out the merits of a book while understanding what people find wrong with it, but others can be a bit gung ho in this regard.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Deflecting criticism when you enjoy something is a natural human response. Nobody likes to feel like they're reading something that is perceived as dumb or unsatisfactory by others because it in turn makes them wonder if they're just as dumb for appreciating it.

    I'm not saying everyone feels like that, plenty can still pick out the merits of a book while understanding what people find wrong with it, but others can be a bit gung ho in this regard.
    I'm aware; I've deflected criticism before as well. Like you said: it's a natural human response. I just don't like when false accusations are made about people who don't share your opinion. Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly haven't disliked the current volume for any of the reasons Warren claimed.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The last part of that Priest quote you posted is so dead on:

    "The impression I am forming is fans want their characters to evolve into flat, lifeless droids who, I guess, have adventures wherein their decisions are always spot-on, they are always portrayed in a heroic light, and nobody ever gets damaged. I don’t intend that to be mean-spirited. That literally is my takeaway from all the crosstalk I am seeing."

    So many times I see fans upset at a writer because a character makes a mistake within a story or is defeated or is anything less than 100% right or heroic. And my thought is always - "what kind of utterly boring character are you looking to read about?". I feel like these people would just be better of playing with an action figure where they can imagine these mistake-free, perfectly heroic characters with no drama to their lives, just always fighting and winning. Or just play a video game where that character is represented but has no inner life.

    Particularly with Spider-Man I really don't get the urge to see a version of that character who never makes a misstep, who never fails, who is never seen in an unflattering light. It's so key to Spider-Man's humanity and humility that he never be perfect, that he trip himself up on a regular basis, that I don't get how anyone ever became a Spider-Man fan in the first place if they want to see a version of him with all the flaws smoothed over. The flaws are what make him enduring - not the spider-powers.

    Take his ability to make mistakes away, give him too much respect, stop pulling the rug out from under him, and it's not really Spider-Man anymore.


    The thing is that most took umbrage with Priest over the Titans crossover was the fact that he reset Damian back to his default setting and showing him to be exactly what Damian's detractors say he is and what he did to OG Wally was the same as killing off the black character to show how badass the villain is. I love Priest but he threw a hissy fit over MCU Panther for not sticking to how he wrote him and is now like "why u mad?"

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoov-E View Post
    The thing is that most took umbrage with Priest over the Titans crossover was the fact that he reset Damian back to his default setting and showing him to be exactly what Damian's detractors say he is and what he did to OG Wally was the same as killing off the black character to show how badass the villain is. I love Priest but he threw a hissy fit over MCU Panther for not sticking to how he wrote him and is now like "why u mad?"
    I'm noticing that trend with a lot of writers these days. Many of them can't seem to handle criticism of any kind (even if it's constructive) and often lash out at their readers. I feel that the relationship between writers and readers has become increasingly toxic on both sides.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masked Guy View Post
    Conway's run was very polarizing when it first occurred, but is widely viewed as one of the classic, definitive takes on the character now. Without the passage of time, we can't really say the same will happen with Slott's run yet. Maybe it will come to be viewed as classic, or maybe it will be viewed as a misfire. Who is to say? Opinions seem a little too split on it at the moment.

    I think it's a rather broad and somewhat baseless accusation to say that all or even most of the dissatisfied fans want things to be "blander" and "safer". Many just don't think the writing is good. Personally, I have strongly disliked Volumes 3 and 4 simply because I feel they've been very boring and poorly written. And when Peter makes a "mistake" (like picking a pointless and stupid fight with Iron Man in Power Play), fans don't necessarily berate it because Peter messed up, but rather because they view it as forced and badly written. I understand that you and plenty of other people are enjoying this current volume, but don't put all the detractors in the same box simply because you disagree with them.

    Also, I'm tired of Slott's fans constantly accusing his critics of disliking his work simply because he won't reinstate the marriage. I'm a marriage fan and have liked multiple stories of his in the past; I just don't like his current work.

    I'm not attempting to pick a fight here; I just don't like when criticism is written off. I'm glad you're enjoying the current volume though.
    I am enjoying it - but I don't think it's above criticism. And not every story clicks for me. But even when I'm not wowed by an issue or an arc, I still feel that Slott is giving it his all and I respect that.

    And you're right that it's unfair to say that fans automatically want a blander, safer Spidey if they don't like Slott's take. It's true that there's a variety of valid gripes that fans can have with Slott's Spidey. However, the marriage or lack thereof, gets a lot of attention and I will say that labeling Slott's run as polarizing ignores the fact that every Spidey run is likely to be polarizing in a post-OMD world.

    Slott just happened to be the first solo ASM writer after OMD and has earned the ire of marriage fans who think that he is enforcing a status quo they don't like. No matter who takes over for Slott when he eventually moves on, if the marriage is still gone - which it will be - that writer is still going to have a group of fans angry with them.

    We also have to take into account that Slott has really been the only solo ASM writer since the internet as we know it today and social media as we know it existed. Every single past Spidey writer - even Stan - could have been deemed "polarizing" for one reason or another if they'd had to conduct their runs with fans having a 24/7 outlet to criticize their work and to direct criticize and interact with them.

  14. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masked Guy View Post
    I haven't come across anyone asking for Spider-Man to be "perfect", just better written. The current volume seems to have polarized a lot of people.
    "Better written" is vague, and that was one of Priest's points about wanting fans to articulate what they want.


    As an aside- I'm really happy to know he's back in comics.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  15. #195
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masked Guy View Post
    The current volume seems to have polarized a lot of people.
    You can say this about literally every version or volume of Spider-man, or any marvel character, ever.

    Or what Prof Warren said, since he beat me to it and I didn't see his post before posting.

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