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  1. #16
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Of course, many a Green Arrow comic has been a Batman comic masquerading as a Green Arrow comic too.

    Arrowcave, arrowcar, utility belt AKA trick arrows that can solve any problem, one of the first kid sidekicks...
    True, but they shouldn't have a done a show (rather relentlessly) highlighting and emphasizing those comics, those similarities. The sleight of hand going on with Arrow is pretty stark, pretty sad.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 07-13-2017 at 08:10 AM.
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  2. #17
    Mighty Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troian View Post
    I got socialist vibes sometimes from Ollie but I don't know :P. I always thought liberals were in the middle and left leaning meant you were more inclined to socialism.
    Liberal technically means you believe the government should interfere with individuals' lives as minimally as possible. So you find more social liberals on the left and technically the economic liberals are on the right. But many people prefer less nuance, so Dems are liberals and Republicans are conservatives. And multiple levels of nuance and simplification serve to confuse people and muddle everyone's intent.

  3. #18
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    True, but they shouldn't have a done a show (rather relentlessly) highlighting and emphasizing those comics, those similarities. The sleight of hand going on with Arrow is pretty stark, pretty sad.
    They didn't.
    Batman doesn't own the serialkilling grim rooftop vigilante trope.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  4. #19
    Pretty Bird Bukdiah's Avatar
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    I never read Green Arrow besides Percy's run, but liked the show for two season. I dropped it after that. I started with New 52 Flash and watched the TV show. It was OK, but deviated a lot. I thought it was kinda corny too so I stopped watching at the start of 3rd season. No idea how they stack up now though.
    Life is too short to waste on bad movies/TV/books/music.

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  5. #20
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    "Green Arrow is Batman," I see as a neutral observation and not a complaint or recommendation. It's clear that both characters share the same ideas, that DC owns both characters, that often the same writers and artists worked on these characters. That's an interesting observation, but I don't see why it's controversial.

    Batman was never an original concept to begin with and Marvel Comics showed in the 1960s that a pubiisher can promote a lot of different titles by sharing elements between all the books--plots, characters, designs. It's just good business sense--and ARROW isn't merely using stuff that came from a comic with Batman in it, they use stuff from all across the DC universe, because they've been given access to that material.

    I would think people would be happy about that. Or am I missing something?

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  6. #21
    Astonishing Member dan12456's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    True, but they shouldn't have a done a show (rather relentlessly) highlighting and emphasizing those comics, those similarities. The sleight of hand going on with Arrow is pretty stark, pretty sad.
    Their personalities are wildly different. Other than some villains and stuff like the Arrowcave this (frequent) complaint doesn't actually hold up to scrutiny.
    Batman is driven by guilt and revenge for his parent's murder, Oliver, while his parents' deaths matter to him, they don't drive him. Oliver is extremely hot headed and reckless, Bruce is cold and calculating. Oliver is significantly more open with his emotions in general. Oliver is able to move on from grief and loss, Bruce isn't. Oliver still values his life as Oliver Queen, Bruce doesn't. Oliver still has hope for his own future beyond the crusade, Bruce doesn't. Oliver also much more easily opens up emotionally to people and is much more trusting. The only extreme similarity is both are control freaks but that is true in the comics anyway.
    Last edited by dan12456; 07-13-2017 at 04:17 PM.
    Current Pull: Lazarus, Invincible, Seven to Eternity, Aquaman, Batman, Detective Comics, Flash, Green Arrow, Green Lanterns, Nightwing, Titans, Daredevil, Royals, Secret Warriors, Black Bolt, Black Panther, Archie, Ninjak.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Bogotazo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan12456 View Post
    Their personalities are wildly different. Other than some villains and stuff like the Arrowcave this (frequent) complaint doesn't actually hold up to scrutiny.
    Batman is driven by guilt and revenge for his parent's murder, while his parents' deaths matter to him, they don't drive him. Oliver is extremely hot headed and reckless, Bruce is cold and calculating. Oliver is significantly more open with his emotions in general. Oliver is able to move on from grief and loss, Bruce isn't. Oliver still values his life as Oliver Queen, Bruce doesn't. Oliver still has hope for his own future beyond the crusade, Bruce doesn't. Oliver also much more easily opens up emotionally to people and is much more trusting. The only extreme similarity is both are control freaks but that is true in the comics anyway.
    Good post, they are very different people.

  8. #23
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan12456 View Post
    Oliver still values his life as Oliver Queen, Bruce doesn't.
    Bruce does when he is being written well, dammit.

    I barely even recognise the psycho in the batsuit anymore.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Bruce does when he is being written well, dammit.

    I barely even recognise the psycho in the batsuit anymore.
    If it means anything he's engaged right now.

  10. #25

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    I think Arrow is better than the New 52 Green Arrow run because it feels like it has a more consistent vision behind it. By the time it reached issue #52 it had 6 or 7 creative teams and they all felt like they were tossing stuff against the wall to see what stuck. Arrow had that feeling after season 3 but its still felt more like it was building to something than the comics did.

    Lemire's run is what I wished Arrow did because it created a whole new mythology for Green Arrow and used Count Vertigo and other Green Arrow Villains well. It even introduces mysticism and magical elements to Green Arrow's world better than season 3/4 did to me.

  11. #26
    Spectacular Member Sparko's Avatar
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    Thank all for your insight and discussions!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Of course, many a Green Arrow comic has been a Batman comic masquerading as a Green Arrow comic too.

    Arrowcave, arrowcar, utility belt AKA trick arrows that can solve any problem, one of the first kid sidekicks...
    And the comic moved past that, you must have a really low opinion of Green Arrow and writers who worked on him like O'Neal, Lemire, Grell, Smith, Dixon etc if you're willing to dismiss his entire character as a Batman ripoff in a attempt to justify the terminal laziness and ineptitude of Marc Guggenheim and team Arrow.

    And even those things are superficial, cars, toys, sidekicks etc are a staple in super hero fiction, the TV show on the other hand literally steals entire PLOT LINES and uses Batman characters that have never even interacted with comic Green Arrow like EVER (al Ghuls, Huntress).

  13. #28
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    And the comic moved past that, you must have a really low opinion of Green Arrow and writers who worked on him like O'Neal, Lemire, Grell, Smith, Dixon etc if you're willing to dismiss his entire character as a Batman ripoff in a attempt to justify the terminal laziness and ineptitude of Marc Guggenheim and team Arrow.

    And even those things are superficial, cars, toys, sidekicks etc are a staple in super hero fiction, the TV show on the other hand literally steals entire PLOT LINES and uses Batman characters that have never even interacted with comic Green Arrow like EVER (al Ghuls, Huntress).
    You can't steal what you already own.
    And it's not as if there is a Batman tv show that has to do without Ra's Al Ghl now.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    You can't steal what you already own.
    And it's not as if there is a Batman tv show that has to do without Ra's Al Ghl now.
    Its still called plagiarism , a student from one university cant just take another researchers work from the same university and claim it for their own.

    What Batman films and shows choose to do with their characters is their prerogative, when I watch a Green Arrow show I'm not looking for Ra's al Ghul, Huntress, Anarky, Talia, Nyssa and Ragman I'm looking for Komodo, Vertigo, Drakon, Speedy etc. I'm looking for them to treat Black Canary with respect.

    Lets admit that Arrow is outright ashamed to be a Green Arrow show and be done with it, these clowns didn't have it in them to make Connor Hawke Ollie's kid even though the episode where Connor was introduced was merely an alternate timeline to begin with. Their considerations are:

    Olcity pandering
    Batman ripping off
    Crossovers episodes
    Introducing as many DC characters and gimmicks for headlines

    Rinse and repeat next season. Logical story telling, source material accuracy and character development be damned.

  15. #30
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Its still called plagiarism
    It is not. It really, really, really is not.

    a student from one university cant just take another researchers work from the same university and claim it for their own.
    Except there are no student and all of the research work was done by the same entity: DC.
    Now, Batman liberally 'borrowing' from Zorro, the Shadow, and others, there's more a case for actual plagiarism there.

    What Batman films and shows choose to do with their characters is their prerogative, when I watch a Green Arrow show I'm not looking for Ra's al Ghul, Huntress, Anarky, Talia, Nyssa and Ragman I'm looking for Komodo, Vertigo, Drakon, Speedy etc. I'm looking for them to treat Black Canary with respect.
    When have Green Arrow comics ever treated Black Canary with respect?

    Olcity pandering
    As long as they keep this I don't even need there to be some guy with a bow in it.

    You know, they should make it an actual city somewhere in their universe.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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