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  1. #46
    Writer and editor KJS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    both are evenly matched
    They aren't. They really, really, really, really aren't.

  2. #47
    Incredible Member moonknight11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    He did do it several times during the Silver Age. There was some giant gorilla that he hit with a "time punch". "Just the right frequency" to send him back to the Age of Dinosaurs where he would be happy. He also defeated some arch-demon character by the same time punch, this time sending him back to a time when the demon's even more powerful wife was able to reach him and defeat him. That one was more Bronze Age so it happened here and there during the Silver/ Bronze Age.

    The Silver Age Superman really was kind of noted for that whole "I can simulate a bunch of other powers by vibrating/ punching/ whatever at such and such an exact frequency." The "right vibes" were definitely a thing in the Silver Age.

    So, if we're invoking any version of Superman and even specific eras during each version, that could work.

    Edit: Oh, pretty sure the gorilla story was Edmond Hamilton, a multiple times award winning science fiction writer. So not horrible writing, just an era when the stories were targeted very much to young children.
    This ends the thread no? Sentry gets time punched. Pre crisis supes comes through with the clutch win.

  3. #48
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Time dumping someone only works in Rumbles if it really, really ends the fight. As in, it removes the other character and they die of old age or something.

    If not, it just means a really long wait for them to 'come back' (or catch up), similarly to Space Tossing someone to Jupiter doesn't mean the fight is over even if they can only fly at Mach 2. So long as they can 'return' - and not die before that - the fight continues.

    In this case, say PC Superman 'time punches' Sentry (I have no idea if PC Superman can do this, I'm just running with the idea) 1000 years into the future. Well, that does actually nothing TO the Sentry, and doesn't permanently remove him from the match. In 1000 years, he'll 'arrive' in Khazan (yes, we're ignoring things like planetary movement and the like because hey, that's what time travel tends to do in comics). Soooo...it means PC Clark sits on his duff for 1000 years waiting (or time travels, himself, to 'catch up').

    There's a potential 'win' in punching him into the past, but that really just means that a 1000 year older Sentry immediately replaces the one punched into the past...and he's probably righteously pissed off for having been forced to sit around waiting for 1000 years to 'arrive' back in the fight.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  4. #49
    Ceiling Belkar stabs you GozertheGozarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonknight11 View Post
    This ends the thread no? Sentry gets time punched. Pre crisis supes comes through with the clutch win.
    It requires Sentry to die sometime in those millions of years, which isn't likely given his ability to rejuvenate himself.
    "I rhyme with tyre
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    "And that's the essential problem with 'Planetary' right there. When Elijah Snow says, 'The world is a strange place'... he gets Dracula, Doc Savage and Godzilla... When we say it, we get The Captain Fire-Cock Rock 'n' Roll Spectacular."
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  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Time dumping someone only works in Rumbles if it really, really ends the fight. As in, it removes the other character and they die of old age or something.

    If not, it just means a really long wait for them to 'come back' (or catch up), similarly to Space Tossing someone to Jupiter doesn't mean the fight is over even if they can only fly at Mach 2. So long as they can 'return' - and not die before that - the fight continues.

    In this case, say PC Superman 'time punches' Sentry (I have no idea if PC Superman can do this, I'm just running with the idea) 1000 years into the future. Well, that does actually nothing TO the Sentry, and doesn't permanently remove him from the match. In 1000 years, he'll 'arrive' in Khazan (yes, we're ignoring things like planetary movement and the like because hey, that's what time travel tends to do in comics). Soooo...it means PC Clark sits on his duff for 1000 years waiting (or time travels, himself, to 'catch up').

    There's a potential 'win' in punching him into the past, but that really just means that a 1000 year older Sentry immediately replaces the one punched into the past...and he's probably righteously pissed off for having been forced to sit around waiting for 1000 years to 'arrive' back in the fight.
    I guess I've misinterpreted BFR because I always assumed someone had to be able to get back in time to beat a ten count which Sentry could if knocked into the past as he just shows up on time but not if knocked into the future. He shows up by a thousand years too late.
    The Four Levels of Competence
    Unconscious incompetence - where one is not aware one stinks and has zero skill.
    Conscious incompetence - where one has trained enough to finally figured out one stinks and has zero skill.
    Conscious competence - where one has skill, but needs to concentrate and think about everything as one is doing it.
    Unconscious competence - where one has hardwired stuff in enough that one doesn't actually think about what one is doing, but just does it.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJS View Post
    They aren't. They really, really, really, really aren't.
    Well he didn't specify which Superman :P

  7. #52
    Writer and editor KJS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    Well he didn't specify which Superman :P
    Either way...

    PC Supes >>>> Sentry
    Every other version of Supes listed in the OP <<<< Sentry


  8. #53
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJS View Post
    Either way...

    PC Supes >>>> Sentry
    Every other version of Supes listed in the OP <<<< Sentry

    As a Superman-first fan, I can live with this.

    So, to recap: while PC Supes could knock out Sentry long enough to claim victory (or just get on with whatever larger mission is at hand), it sounds like even he can't outright kill Sentry in a way that he can't come back from .... outside of time-punching Sentry to the literal end of time.

    So who CAN straight-up kill Sentry w/o the need for extreme time-punching?

    Sounds like even Galaxy-buster class powerhouses like Marvel's Odin wouldn't overcome Sentry's overwhelming defense (which appears to outclass Sentry own offense by a factor of like 100 times?).

    Do we need to go full-on Universe-Buster class, a la Galactus / GL's Krona, to find someone who could kill Sentry?

    Or (gulp) even higher to the Multiverse-Buster class?

  9. #54
    Super Moderator The Watcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    There's a potential 'win' in punching him into the past, but that really just means that a 1000 year older Sentry immediately replaces the one punched into the past...and he's probably righteously pissed off for having been forced to sit around waiting for 1000 years to 'arrive' back in the fight.
    On the plus side, he gets a free better-than-ringside seat to watch every match before this one once the arena gets built.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    As a Superman-first fan, I can live with this.

    So, to recap: while PC Supes could knock out Sentry long enough to claim victory (or just get on with whatever larger mission is at hand), it sounds like even he can't outright kill Sentry in a way that he can't come back from .... outside of time-punching Sentry to the literal end of time.

    So who CAN straight-up kill Sentry w/o the need for extreme time-punching?

    Sounds like even Galaxy-buster class powerhouses like Marvel's Odin wouldn't overcome Sentry's overwhelming defense (which appears to outclass Sentry own offense by a factor of like 100 times?).

    Do we need to go full-on Universe-Buster class, a la Galactus / GL's Krona, to find someone who could kill Sentry?

    Or (gulp) even higher to the Multiverse-Buster class?
    Depends. Does Odin's ability to manipulate matter and energy (and soul) beat Sentry's? Probably as Sentry's only surpassed that of a MoleculeMman who was reduced to warping on the level of a small town. I suspect Odin could do things that would prevent Sentry from coming back.
    The Four Levels of Competence
    Unconscious incompetence - where one is not aware one stinks and has zero skill.
    Conscious incompetence - where one has trained enough to finally figured out one stinks and has zero skill.
    Conscious competence - where one has skill, but needs to concentrate and think about everything as one is doing it.
    Unconscious competence - where one has hardwired stuff in enough that one doesn't actually think about what one is doing, but just does it.
    -SharpandPointies

  11. #56
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Here's the deal: we really can't bring down Sentry's feat by saying that he could only beat a weakened MM, because that MM was not at all explicitly weakened. Sure, he only manipulated something smaller than the size of a state (but his effects were definitely larger than a town, AND he didn't struggle at all in doing so), but that was because it was all he WANTED to manipulate. He was feeling pretty insane at the time. He was still such a threat that he just willed Sentry out of existence on his way there - which Sentry just came back from, though it took him a while the first time. He did it again, and Sentry came back instantly. He tried again, got lolnoped, then Sentry did the same thing back, and MM couldn't do squat about it.

    As to who could take him out, well, that's tough, as he does just keep on coming right back. Morgan Le Fay annihilates him? Flies right back at the end of the issue, well before he'd mastered this stuff. Wifey kills him with a special Sentry killing gun? He comes right back. MM dusts him once? He "Hey Kool-Aid's" himself back. MM does it again? Instant this time, as he's really gotten the hang of it. MM tries again? No, not this time you idiot. How do YOU like it?

    Probably someone who could time-dump him into the big bang or something, or who could rob/steal/corrupt his powers, or could use the TVA's Retcon Gun on him, and who would have absolutely no problem doing something of the sort...

    ...you know, Reed Richards with prep.

  12. #57
    Incredible Member moonknight11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Time dumping someone only works in Rumbles if it really, really ends the fight. As in, it removes the other character and they die of old age or something.

    If not, it just means a really long wait for them to 'come back' (or catch up), similarly to Space Tossing someone to Jupiter doesn't mean the fight is over even if they can only fly at Mach 2. So long as they can 'return' - and not die before that - the fight continues.

    In this case, say PC Superman 'time punches' Sentry (I have no idea if PC Superman can do this, I'm just running with the idea) 1000 years into the future. Well, that does actually nothing TO the Sentry, and doesn't permanently remove him from the match. In 1000 years, he'll 'arrive' in Khazan (yes, we're ignoring things like planetary movement and the like because hey, that's what time travel tends to do in comics). Soooo...it means PC Clark sits on his duff for 1000 years waiting (or time travels, himself, to 'catch up').

    There's a potential 'win' in punching him into the past, but that really just means that a 1000 year older Sentry immediately replaces the one punched into the past...and he's probably righteously pissed off for having been forced to sit around waiting for 1000 years to 'arrive' back in the fight.
    If Sentry gets dumped into the future he's gonna miss the 10 count by millenia.

  13. #58
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonknight11 View Post
    If Sentry gets dumped into the future he's gonna miss the 10 count by millenia.
    10-count doesn't apply to BFRs.

    As an example, if Wonder Man got punched to the next galaxy, he wouldn't get 10-counted.

    His flight speed is pretty slow, so it would take a looooooooooong time to get back, but he doesn't need to breathe or eat so the time is irrelevant to him, and he can get back under his own power so he wouldn't be out of the fight.

  14. #59
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I guess I've misinterpreted BFR because I always assumed someone had to be able to get back in time to beat a ten count which Sentry could if knocked into the past as he just shows up on time but not if knocked into the future. He shows up by a thousand years too late.
    As Beadle notes, ten count doesn't apply. It's made to keep those pesky immortals from winning simply because they can't be killed. Getting hoofed from the arena is 'get back under own power'.

    As an example, if Aiken Drum (look him up) uses his Psychokinesis to launch Ben Grimm (probably don't need to look him up) a few dozen miles from the arena, it's a safe bet that Ben isn't....

    1. KO'ed;
    2. Going to make it back in 10 seconds.

    However, Rumbles is just fine with him trucking back, leaving Aiken standing around tapping his foot on the ground for the next couple of hours. Fight then resumes, Aiken mind-zorches him, everyone is happy. But win by tossing him out of the arena isn't an option, as Aiken doesn't (quite) have the stuff to hurl him into orbit, and Aunt Petunia's Blue-Eyed Boy isn't getting KO'ed by being hurled a ways.

    Similarly space-toss. Someone can come back? Great. Note that I'm personally very leery of someone like the Juggernaut walking back from being space tossed a couple of light minutes away, simply because he won't be able to FIND Khazan (space is big, the world is small, Juggs doesn't have any special senses to detect it; besides which, he doesn't have sufficient walking speed to catch up). Similarly people who can fly at mach 2 or the like. But mileage may vary on that.

    Similarly time dump. It's not a ring-out if the person can come back...by waiting.

    Now, if the person isn't IMMORTAL, then great. Time-dump them into the past, and by the time either they catch up, they're dead. Fight-win.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  15. #60
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Watcher View Post
    On the plus side, he gets a free better-than-ringside seat to watch every match before this one once the arena gets built.
    There is that! Always look for a positive.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

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