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  1. #91
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think when Rucka/Brubaker did Bat-jerk, they took it to the next level...
    They took it to the next level with the purpose of having Bruce go "Oh my god, what have I become?" and become more like classic O'Neil Bruce.
    They ended their run with a kinder, saner Batman who had seen the error of his ways.

    Sadly the very next writer had very different ideas.
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    They took it to the next level with the purpose of having Bruce go "Oh my god, what have I become?" and become more like classic O'Neil Bruce.
    They ended their run with a kinder, saner Batman who had seen the error of his ways.

    Sadly the very next writer had very different ideas.
    But like TheCape said, Bruce had already gone through similar arcs and learned lessons at the end of the story, so they weren't treading new ground. Bruce had already driven his family away during NML and learned that he needed them. Rucka/Brubaker told it better than most, but it still contributed to the Bat-dickery.

    Rucka's Bruce never had much of an O'Neil vibe even after he learned his lesson, IMO. Morrison is really the one who brought back the Bronze Age persona.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    They took it to the next level with the purpose of having Bruce go "Oh my god, what have I become?" and become more like classic O'Neil Bruce.
    They ended their run with a kinder, saner Batman who had seen the error of his ways.

    Sadly the very next writer had very different ideas.
    Forgive me for commenting on comic runs I haven't read, but I've seen that claim before, and I'm not sure it holds up. Brubaker was a writer in the 'War Games' arc that has been extensively trashed here for making Bruce an utter asshole (among other problems), while Rucka wrote the OMAC event in which Bruce was worse than ever, risking / causing the deaths of thousands due to arrogance and being a completely unsympathetic jerk throughout. Furthermore, both of those stories had Bruce as incompetent to the point where Gotham / the Earth would be far better off if he was dead. Furthermore, Rucka / Brubaker had already done Officer Down (in which Bruce 'learned his lesson' about being a jerk), then Murderer / Fugitive (in which Bruce 'learned his lesson' about being a jerk), followed by the aforementioned stories. As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I see no reason to think that they wouldn't have just repeated the same story about Bruce being an asshole, terrible things happening as a result, and Bruce making a promise to be less of an asshole that would be forgotten by the start of the next story. They had plenty of opportunities to do a non-jerk Bruce, and they never did.
    Last edited by Bionicman; 08-12-2017 at 11:38 AM.

  4. #94
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicman View Post
    Forgive me for commenting on comic runs I haven't read, but I've seen that claim before, and I'm not sure it holds up. Brubaker was a writer in the 'War Games' arc that has been extensively trashed...
    Ed Brubaker was not a writer of the War Games arc. He was the writer of the ongoing Catwoman book that, like all Batman books, had forced tie-ins into War Games.

    ...while Rucka wrote the OMAC event in which Bruce was worse than ever...
    The way continuity is supposed to work is that you take the character how he is. Rucka wrote the Batman that existed then, not the one he left when he ended his run on Detective.
    This is also the story that has Batman being used as a boxing ball by Superman.

    Furthermore, Rucka / Brubaker had already done Officer Down (in which Bruce 'learned his lesson' about being a jerk)...
    "Officer Down" is where the idea for Murderer/Fugitive was born. It was step one.

    They had plenty of opportunities to do a non-jerk Bruce, and they never did.
    I think they felt that the Batjerk was so ingrained that it would take a bit more than a small story here and there to undo him. and they were right. It is currently unknown what it would take.

    I'll just leave you with these scans from the end of Murderer/Fugitive.





    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  5. #95
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    And that is itself an older idea. During Knightsend, when confronting Jean Paul Valley, Bruce says "There is no Batman. Batman is a fiction."

    As Bruce winces at his own words, the narration reads: "Did he really just say that? Can it possibly be true? For years he believed that Batman was the truth, Bruce Wayne the fiction."

    That's another reason I can't stand early 2000s Batman. Even when it thinks it's come up with some profound insight into the character, it's just bringing Bruce to a realization about himself he's already had in older and better stories.

  6. #96
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    And that is itself an older idea. During Knightsend, when confronting Jean Paul Valley, Bruce says "There is no Batman. Batman is a fiction."

    As Bruce winces at his own words, the narration reads: "Did he really just say that? Can it possibly be true? For years he believed that Batman was the truth, Bruce Wayne the fiction."

    That's another reason I can't stand early 2000s Batman. Even when it thinks it's come up with some profound insight into the character, it's just bringing Bruce to a realization about himself he's already had in older and better stories.
    And this was forgotten, utterly and completely, no more then 6 months later. That's the thing with never-ending superhero books that have been going for over 70 years. Everything has already been done and you're left trying to do interesting things with old patterns and tropes.

    Nobody here was under the idea they had this marvellous new insight.
    What they wanted to do was the same thing O'Neil tried to do with the Knightfall trilogy: kill off the Batjerk once and for all, but it never manages to stick.
    Hence the title of this thread...
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  7. #97
    Mighty Member Nick Miller's Avatar
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    A lot of good points here, BUT is he really that big a jerk all the time? The last 30 years?

    How can readers not understand that he acts this way, to protect his fellow co-vigilantes? Lots of Times he takes the burden of fighting crime in Gotham all on himself, to protect those closest to him.

  8. #98
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Miller View Post
    A lot of good points here, BUT is he really that big a jerk all the time? The last 30 years?

    How can readers not understand that he acts this way, to protect his fellow co-vigilantes? Lots of Times he takes the burden of fighting crime in Gotham all on himself, to protect those closest to him.
    He trained most of those co-vigilantes himself, and then gets overprotective and tells them it's HIS city and he'll protect it on his lonesome, and more than once has banished them from Gotham. That's being a dick.

    He may be doing it to protect them, but that is not an excuse.
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Miller View Post
    A lot of good points here, BUT is he really that big a jerk all the time? The last 30 years?

    How can readers not understand that he acts this way, to protect his fellow co-vigilantes? Lots of Times he takes the burden of fighting crime in Gotham all on himself, to protect those closest to him.
    If it came out that way it would work much better. Unfortunately his dickishness is often what puts his co-vigilantes in danger. In Officer Down, he did nothing to protect anyone while pushing everyone away. It was all about his brooding over Gordon being shot. Everyone else had to work, fighting catwoman, gathering evidence, ect. He got to stand in a hospital room and do nothing for 5 issues. And War Games happened because he decided to emotionally manipulate Tim and Steph when it was completely unnecessary since Tim was retired and out of danger. And OMAC was him putting the entire world in danger out of dickishness. So many disasters and deaths would have been avoided if he would have just not been a jerk.

  10. #100
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    He trained most of those co-vigilantes himself, and then gets overprotective and tells them it's HIS city and he'll protect it on his lonesome, and more than once has banished them from Gotham. That's being a dick.

    He may be doing it to protect them, but that is not an excuse.
    Well said. I think the point is also that he can't protect them, and shouldn't - they are trying to protect others, voluntarily putting themselves between civilians and harm, and to deny that choice is to deny other people the right to attempt to be heroic.
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  11. #101
    Mighty Member Nick Miller's Avatar
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    Again, it's not all the time.

    And for me anyway, when he does go overboard, it makes for compelling comics

  12. #102
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Miller View Post
    Again, it's not all the time.
    Well, no. After he's kicked everybody out of his city there is a period where he doesn't interact with his allies.
    So this Zealot comes to my door, all glazed eyes and clean reproductive organs, asking me if I ever think about God. So I tell him I killed God. I tracked God down like a rabid dog, hacked off his legs with a hedge trimmer, and boiled off his corpse in an acid bath. So he pulls an alternating-current taser on me and tells me that only the Official Serbian Church of Tesla can save my polyphase intrinsic electric field, known to non-engineers as "the soul". So I hit him. What would you do?

  13. #103
    Incredible Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Bruce was a complicated case back in the day for some people, he was the Ultimate Ashole, with not redeeming qualities, "works alone" and is bordeline abusive toward the people that works with, others like to put it as great dad, Bruce collects orphans and dads them all in his Dadcave by being supportive and noticeably emotionally affirming in their lives. Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph, Cass, and Damian are all his “children” that he literally acts like a father to.

    In reality he is sort of a weird and complicated mix beetween those. Bruce has a reputation as an ass hole, but his life first and foremost revolves around helping people. Bruce is a man of actions rather than words, and because he has difficulty being forthright about his emotions, his actions will sometimes come across the wrong way. (In Robin: Year One, Bruce fired Dick after Dick nearly died. Bruce did this out of concern for Dick’s safety, but he didn’t know how to put this into words, thus causing a situation where Dick felt rejected and like a disappointment.) Bruce doesn’t do this intentionally; he’s usually just uncomfortable or unaware of how to go about it. Over the years, the Batfamily has learned to understand and accept the way Bruce operates, while Bruce has learned how to be more of a team player to his allies (albeit, a team player who will still leave his team in the dark when it suits him). He even has an unexpected and witty sense of humor when he’s in the mood. Although Bruce does have complicated paternal-esque relationships with most of his proteges, most of the Batfamily does not treat Bruce as a dad because Bruce himself rarely acts like a dad. Although Bruce is extremely limited with positive emotions and his allies get frustrated with him easily, they still know he has a heroic streak at his core and respect him. Bruce is dependable, a man who stays true to his morals, and a mentor figure. He’s also distrustful, abrasive, holds virtually impossible expectations for other people, is difficult to work with, and can drive people up walls with how cavalier he is. At least that is as always saw him in Post-Crisis.

  14. #104
    Incredible Member TheCape's Avatar
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    I want to say something about Nightwing: Year One too. there is a reason of why Chuck Dixon write that scene with Bruce firing Dick in such a violent way to say the least.

    In Nightwing: Year One you have Bruce fire Dick in the harshest manner ever presented in the DCU. Why did you decide to write it that way?

    Dixon: To show that Bruce was wrong, wrong, wrong and never understood what Dick Grayson meant to him. I think I was unwittingly having Bruce stand-in for all those wrong-headed fans who think that Batman is better without Robin. And it’s Dick’s story. It’s his pain. We wanted it to be palpable and real for the reader. [x]
    At the same time Dixon retconed his own story beacause in Robin: Year One the fired scene was a bit different, when Bruce kick him out for being hurt after a fight with Two Face, Bruce seemed to be very rigid and cold in that scene, but that's because he is strugglin with the idea of him putting Dick in a dangerous situation, maybe not the right thing to do, but understandable.

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