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  1. #16
    Fantastic Member BrianWilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    How exactly did Final Crisis effect Wonder Woman?
    Well, specifically I thought it was really bloody annoying that this was DC's big giant event of the year and yet Wonder Woman did literally nothing but get mind controlled and become a Fury or whatever. It's just another one of those things throughout that period that showed those creators didn't respect her or her mythos very much.

    More generally, the whole Countdown to Final Crisis nonsense really contributed to the destruction of WW's status quo. There were Amazons on the island...except they were fake Amazons...except Hippolyta is still there...and they kidnapped Oliver Queen...and Harley Quinn was there for a while...??...?...????...it was all just a big mess and I used "Final Crisis" as a shorthand for that whole year.

  2. #17
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    As with Batman and Superman, I reject the idea that there is a worst period. And to dwell on this kind of thing is promoting a negativity that isn't healthy. As long as the character is in print, there's reason to celebrate. The worst period would be if the character was out of print. Think of the original Captain Marvel, out of print between 1954 and 1973--that's the worst!

    But Wonder Woman has come close to being out of print a couple of times, in 1986 and again in 2006. I wouldn't say those were the worst periods, because these pauses in publication didn't last long--but had WW stayed out of print indefinitely that would have been the worst!

    Beach Baby, Beach Baby, there on the sand
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  3. #18
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The New 52 as a whole was awful. The Azzarello run was the best part of it. Its overrated and has plenty of things I dislike, but no way is it the worst, especially from that period.
    I do think many people do not treat the Azzarello/Chiang run fairly.
    At first I disliked many ideas I heard about it.
    But here's the thing . . . NONE OF HER PAST RUNS STILL APPLIED. He was at a point where everything was starting over with a clean slate. And the Azzarello/Chiang version was a hell of a lot more interesting than what Geoff Johns was doing with Diana in the first 12 issues of New 52's Justice League.

  4. #19
    Incredible Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    The 60s before Dennis O'Neil took over.

  5. #20
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Most everything between Marston and Perez. Ditto the period between Rucka's first run and the New 52.
    I disagree, while the decision to strip Wonder Woman of all of her powers, and make her a martial arts figure was an odd, and silly move, on DC editorial's part, but there are some really creative and wonderfully wierd elements to the Wonder Woman mythos in the silver age. I wish they kept Wonder Tot as part of continuity.

  6. #21
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilly View Post

    More generally, the whole Countdown to Final Crisis nonsense really contributed to the destruction of WW's status quo. There were Amazons on the island...except they were fake Amazons...except Hippolyta is still there...and they kidnapped Oliver Queen...and Harley Quinn was there for a while...??...?...????...it was all just a big mess and I used "Final Crisis" as a shorthand for that whole year.
    When you get down to it, Countdown was just absolutely repulsive. How could you have a major, "it's going to change everything", crossover event and have the tie - in events purposefully overshadow the main event. It's like Countdown was one of those pamphlets that give you a free preview of a comic. Just abysmal.

  7. #22
    Incredible Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilly View Post
    More generally, the whole Countdown to Final Crisis nonsense really contributed to the destruction of WW's status quo. There were Amazons on the island...except they were fake Amazons...except Hippolyta is still there...and they kidnapped Oliver Queen...and Harley Quinn was there for a while...??...?...????...it was all just a big mess and I used "Final Crisis" as a shorthand for that whole year.
    I remember so much head scratching during that time when Harley Quinn and Holly Robinson were on Themyscira taking on Female Furies. Countdown was a mess.

  8. #23
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I remember so much head scratching during that time when Harley Quinn and Holly Robinson were on Themyscira taking on Female Furies. Countdown was a mess.
    The whole Permacrisis period (Identity Crisis on) was when DC as a whole went downhill, though it took Azzarello's seventh issue to get me to stop buying DC. I'm a lot more leery of buying books I'm not enjoying as a result.
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  9. #24
    Incredible Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I'm a lot more leery of buying books I'm not enjoying as a result.
    I'm a convert of this plan too. If I'm not enjoying it, it's not worth it.
    Last edited by WonderScott; 07-16-2017 at 09:16 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endsong View Post
    I don't actually know how people can say that Azzarrello's run was a lowpoint for the character - yes, it was unlike most things that the character had been known for before, but this version of the character as well as the new installments to her mythos (such as being the child of Zeus) was actually very much a boon for the character of Wonder Woman. It saved her from what she was destined to fall into - relative obscurity. It made changes that are still well received among a general fanbase and that are still relevant today, such as the Zeus origin being used in the film and it being a major plot point for Rebirth. Sure, it may not have been your Diana (it wasn't exactly mine, though certain things about her definitely do still stick in my head as being perfect for Wondy), but it was STILL a good time for Diana. Immediately after that? Not so much.
    Do you honestly not know how people can not share your opinion of Azzarello's run? Sure, it may have sold consistently well, but, there's no evidence that WW was going to fall into obscurity without it. In fact, Rucka's run has consistently out sold it, even though it's back to a more classical WW. Which, to answer your first statement, is why many, myself included, don't see nu52 WW as a highpoint. Diana may have been written well, but it was mediocre to a disaster for every other female character.

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I do think many people do not treat the Azzarello/Chiang run fairly.
    At first I disliked many ideas I heard about it.
    But here's the thing . . . NONE OF HER PAST RUNS STILL APPLIED. He was at a point where everything was starting over with a clean slate. And the Azzarello/Chiang version was a hell of a lot more interesting than what Geoff Johns was doing with Diana in the first 12 issues of New 52's Justice League.
    What's so "unfair" about not liking it? Sure, it was a new start - so what? Was nu52 Alfred a serial child predator just because, "hey, 52"? Was Pa Kent the kingpin of KKK killings in Kansas? Every single change Azzarello made to the WW story was about shoehorning in a male-centric focus and trashing the women not named Diana. He created the absolute dumbest goddess of wisdom I have ever seen. So, how is it "unfair" to call him on it?

  11. #26
    remember the titans Endsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Do you honestly not know how people can not share your opinion of Azzarello's run? Sure, it may have sold consistently well, but, there's no evidence that WW was going to fall into obscurity without it. In fact, Rucka's run has consistently out sold it, even though it's back to a more classical WW. Which, to answer your first statement, is why many, myself included, don't see nu52 WW as a highpoint. Diana may have been written well, but it was mediocre to a disaster for every other female character.
    I'm not saying that people need to share my opinion - saying that would be illogical. What I am, however, saying is that Azzarello's run met critical acclaim and bolstered the character's status to a point that it hadn't been in years. You can dislike the stories, that's fine, but to say that it was a "low point" for the character of Wonder Woman is disingenuous.

    "You are here. You fought the weekend war, and you made it to the other side. Welcome to Monday; you can be anyone here. This is a new day, a new beginning, a new chance to be great. We are wiser and wilder than we were yesterday. Go kiss a stranger. Scream your favorite song from the top of the tallest building. You have the right to remain rock and roll. This is the end of the innocence; youth wasn't wasted on us. Now get out there, and write your story." - Brian Logan Dales, The Summer Set

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endsong View Post
    I'm not saying that people need to share my opinion - saying that would be illogical. What I am, however, saying is that Azzarello's run met critical acclaim and bolstered the character's status to a point that it hadn't been in years. You can dislike the stories, that's fine, but to say that it was a "low point" for the character of Wonder Woman is disingenuous.
    How is it disingenuous though? I can acknowledge that Azzarello's run sold well as was well received critically - that doesn't make it is a high point for me. Twilight was wildly popular, but it's a low point as far as I'm concerned. Just because a bunch of people like something, that doesn't always mean it's actually good.

  13. #28
    Spectacular Member Natamaxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    How is it disingenuous though? I can acknowledge that Azzarello's run sold well as was well received critically - that doesn't make it is a high point for me. Twilight was wildly popular, but it's a low point as far as I'm concerned. Just because a bunch of people like something, that doesn't always mean it's actually good.
    And just because you don't like something it doesn't automatically make it bad.

  14. #29
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    A tie between the Finch run and Amazons Attack

  15. #30
    Fantastic Member Hawk80's Avatar
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    The Azz-Finch run ruined Wonder Woman.

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