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  1. #31
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Most everything between Marston and Perez. Ditto the period between Rucka's first run and the New 52.

    The New 52 as a whole was awful. The Azzarello run was the best part of it. Its overrated and has plenty of things I dislike, but no way is it the worst, especially from that period. And it's leagues ahead of everything from Heinberg on.
    When a writer can get me to drop comics outright and never go back, that would be in my definition a very bad, awful run!

  2. #32
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I do think many people do not treat the Azzarello/Chiang run fairly.
    At first I disliked many ideas I heard about it.
    But here's the thing . . . NONE OF HER PAST RUNS STILL APPLIED. He was at a point where everything was starting over with a clean slate. And the Azzarello/Chiang version was a hell of a lot more interesting than what Geoff Johns was doing with Diana in the first 12 issues of New 52's Justice League.
    Azz himself lied when asked about his run early on. He said it was a soft reboot, not the hard reboot that came to be.

    If he doesn't lie from the beginning, but tells it like it is, I think he might not have gotten as much backlash as he did.

  3. #33
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    The Azzarello run was not the worst period. It's being panned for three things, specifically, that rarely get clearly articulated. Aside from these four things, it was absolutely brilliant - the most imaginative run, since Marston's!

    1) Combination of agonizingly slow-paced storytelling and very little action
    2) Giving Wonder Woman another father. Prince Theno was her father in the 1950s.
    3) Amazon sex-pirates backstory

    Worst period...how about the last thirty-some years? Especially, the Circe stories, which typically had no plot...
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-17-2017 at 03:26 AM.
    FINALLY! The greatest comic book movie, ever made... The ORIGIN of the GOLDEN AGE WONDER BOY!

  4. #34
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    How is it disingenuous though? I can acknowledge that Azzarello's run sold well as was well received critically - that doesn't make it is a high point for me. Twilight was wildly popular, but it's a low point as far as I'm concerned. Just because a bunch of people like something, that doesn't always mean it's actually good.
    Not even remotely the same thing.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    The Finch run. That was the true nadir for Diana in which we had a writer who seemed genuinely determined to portray Diana as a weak, incompetent idiot. All previous runs may not have been to all of our tastes, but none of them seemed like an actual attack on the character of Wonder Woman before the Finch run.

    And to those who continue to say that the Odyssey run was dark, depressing, and destructive to Diana's character? I can only conclude that you only read the first three to four issues because the darkness started dissipating very quickly and Diana started to exhibit all the traits we typically associate with her. In the end, everything was set right and the story ended on a total high note in which Diana was seen flying off into the future with a smile on her face.
    Last edited by Vanguard-01; 07-17-2017 at 06:24 AM.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  6. #36
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    Kanigher, especially the Andru/Esposito era. When other characters were have their mythology expand (all the Silver Age innovations in Superman, Flash, GL, etc), she was stuck in juvenile adventures with Bird Boy and Mer Boy, fighting stupid menaces like the Glop and Fireworks Man. Kanigher wrote the series for 20 year and had only one significant addition to her rogues gallery-- Angle Man, who deserves his lame status (he's still never had a great interpretation). He was basically a gang leader with barely a gimmick for a trait.

    Wonder Woman was a series that no good writer wanted to work on for years, and even with the success of her tv show, she limped into the 70s and 80s. There ere some good writers here and there (Pasko, Jack C Harris, Thomas, even Mishkin), but no one wanted to stick around and resurrect her from the legacy Kanigher left until Perez made her a top seller again.

    People might not like Azzarello, or Finch, or Picoult, or JMS, or whoever, but none of these writers had the lasting damage that Kanihger left.

    I would agree that her third run, with Heniberg, and Picoult, and Simone burned out pretty quickly. Simone brought a lot of innovations, but none of them very memorable, which is probably why they needed JMS to come along and flush it all away.

    And personally, I would say the 100s of her second series was a huge nadir for me. Byrne, Luke, and Jimenez ranged from forgettable to terrible, and I was happy when Rucka came along to to end the series on a high note.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Azz himself lied when asked about his run early on. He said it was a soft reboot, not the hard reboot that came to be.
    Time-out.

    Was it specifically just Azzarello saying it was a "soft reboot"?
    As far as I was aware, that was the company's description of the New52 in general. Was Azzarello saying what that because he was the only one believing it was a "soft reboot", or was he repeating what DiDio and others claimed?

  8. #38
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    For me, the darkest chapter in Wonder Woman's history is the 50's where the comics code neutered the Wonder Woman series and writer Robert Kanigher decided to take her in a more domesticated direction. This was also the point in comics where most superheroes' established rogues gallery were cemented, but Kanigher basically did away with the majority of Wonder Woman's enemies (most of whom were women) and replaced them with Angle Man and a bunch of weird "alien-of-the-days."

    Historically, for me, Kanigher was the worst thing to happen to Wonder Woman.

    I will say that the New 52 is also a very low point for Wonder Woman, but Kanigher has it beat. The New 52 made Wonder Woman's world a very dark place, and Wonder Woman herself was a sword-wielding barbarian (at least in the first half of Geoff Johns's Justice League). The Amazons were transformed from loving sisters into hateful harpies. The primary elements of Wonder Woman's mythos were ditched in favor of brand new ones that ultimately weren't very popular. And that Finch run. Oh, that Finch run.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endsong View Post
    I'm not saying that people need to share my opinion - saying that would be illogical. What I am, however, saying is that Azzarello's run met critical acclaim and bolstered the character's status to a point that it hadn't been in years. You can dislike the stories, that's fine, but to say that it was a "low point" for the character of Wonder Woman is disingenuous.

    But here's the thing, several of those critics flat out said they had never really or at all read Wonder Woman before Azzarello's run and then some of them even had the gall to call it the "Best WW Run Ever". At the end of the day, what is critical acclaim beyond some favorable opinions from people. Sales were mediocre after the first 12 issues so it's not like it was burning up the charts in the top 25 for the entire run. Plus I think the run drove away just as many fans as it brought in and during the run some of those fans even said that once Azz left the title, they would too and they followed through with that promise after Azz's last issue was released.
    Currently Reading: Aquaman, Batgirl & The Birds of Prey, Green Arrow. Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps, Justice League of America, The Terrifics, Titans, Wonder Woman, & Wonder Woman '77.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post

    While that may be a questionable piece of dialogue, it didn't even come close to tarnishing Wonder Woman as much as this did:


    Currently Reading: Aquaman, Batgirl & The Birds of Prey, Green Arrow. Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps, Justice League of America, The Terrifics, Titans, Wonder Woman, & Wonder Woman '77.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    . . . I think the run drove away just as many fans as it brought in and during the run some of those fans even said that once Azz left the title, they would too and they followed through with that promise after Azz's last issue was released.
    I had read Wonder Woman in the past (the past century), but hadn't really been following her stuff for many years. Started reading comic books in general again around 2010-2011 but only a couple of issues of pre-New52 Wonder Woman, and hadn't planned on buying the New52 run. But after looking over an issue (#4?) I got curious enough to start following it, and I truly found the run to be an interesting alternate take to what I had read and enjoyed in the past.
    I was going to try the Finch run after Azzarello & Chiang were done, but worried it would follow the Geoff Johns/JL model instead of what Azzarello and Chiang had done. Seeing the preview and the line about "vegetative injustice" just convinced me to not even bother buying it at all.

  12. #42
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Time-out.

    Was it specifically just Azzarello saying it was a "soft reboot"?
    As far as I was aware, that was the company's description of the New52 in general. Was Azzarello saying what that because he was the only one believing it was a "soft reboot", or was he repeating what DiDio and others claimed?
    Azz said that in one of his first interviews when he became the writer of Wonder Woman. He said it was a soft reboot.

    A real quick google search brought up this: http://www.cbr.com/azzarello-scares-...-wonder-woman/

    Just read the interview in which he states its a real soft reboot. I am not sure how anyone can say his take is a soft reboot.
    Last edited by BiteTheBullet; 07-17-2017 at 08:45 AM.

  13. #43
    Incredible Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanT View Post
    Kanigher wrote the series for 20 year and had only one significant addition to her rogues gallery-- Angle Man, who deserves his lame status (he's still never had a great interpretation). He was basically a gang leader with barely a gimmick for a trait.
    I'd argue that Jimenez breathed some life into Angle Man, with his take on Angelo Bend, but mileage may very depending on if you like his gentleman thief characterization. For a gimmick character, I found the new take intersting.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I'd argue that Jimenez breathed some life into Angle Man, with his take on Angelo Bend, but mileage may very depending on if you like his gentleman thief characterization. For a gimmick character, I found the new take intersting.
    I found his take to be a pre-fab characterization, adding no depth to an already one-dimensional character. Maybe that's the joke about him-- he's dimension-hopping so much he doesn't have time to settle down and get any dimensionality himself.

  15. #45
    Incredible Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    That's an easy one. The New 52 run by Azzarello. It was more about spectacle than depth and could be summed up as juvenile deviant shock value.
    I agree, nothing else even comes close. There were other bad runs but they didn't spread to the Wonder Woman feature film and ruin that too.

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