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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilly View Post
    Man, I'd forgotten about this scene, but it really just illustrates how hollow Azzarello's idea of a "strong, feminist woman" is, which kinda sums up his attitude towards Diana in general.

    Like of course the only recourse towards misogyny is to resort to sexualized violence in return, to physically mutilate someone, particularly their manhood. How badass lol! How Amazonian lol! Clearly women who don't take your ish are just hankering to lop off your genitalia!

    Like, it genuinely would have annoyed me much less if Diana had in fact just punched him (which she did do, later); it's the whole addition of Diana as some sexy destroyer of penises -- and there's a term for this kind of psychological complex -- that makes Azzarello's methods here so transparent.

    So say nothing of him turning Orion from your basic aggro warrior guy into Guy Gardner with even less filters (and even that's kinda insulting to Guy!).


    That's exactly how I feel. This display of sexualized violence and the threat of castration were just over the top and did nothing to embellish Diana's character. Other heroes might take those kinds of actions but not Diana. This scene did not exemplify Diana's beliefs that had been in place for so long before Azzarello came along:


    Wonder Woman Message .jpg

    And Guy Gardner with even less filters - that priceless!
    Last edited by Dr. Poison; 07-17-2017 at 04:50 PM.
    Currently Reading: Aquaman, Batgirl & The Birds of Prey, Green Arrow. Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps, Justice League of America, The Terrifics, Titans, Wonder Woman, & Wonder Woman '77.

  2. #62
    Lv 67 Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    I think the worst was when in the 1960s they thought that imitating the golden age Marston/Peter's style, the WW series would have had high sales like in the good ol' days.
    That did give us the Crimson Centipede (#169) and an okay Cheetah and Dr. Psycho story though.
    Also visit my blog where I expose Wonder Woman for the criminal she is!

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Wonder Woman didn't spring forth from his imagination the way the Minutemen came from Moore's. So no, not the same. Watchmen is a self contained graphic novel, whereas WW was continued (as she always is) by the next author, and it went to crap immediately.

    An uninformed fan coming to Wonder Woman with him and finding something to enjoy, and maybe moving on to something else when he leaves, is one thing. Deciding it must be the best thing she's ever been in with zero knowledge of anything that came before is another thing entirely. It's just seems so silly, especially for a character who has been around as long as her.
    Exactly! The Watchmen comparison really doesn't work here for the reasons you've outlined. Nor does it work to call any work the "best," or the "worst," if you have little to no knowledge of what you are comparing it to.

    Speaking of which ...

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Not even remotely the same thing.
    You are right since Azzarello's WW is no where near Twilight's success. I can't speak to the quality, since I have neither read nor seen more than 5 minutes of Twilight. But, millions more know of it, for better or worse - so, does that make it better, because millions more like it more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Natamaxxx View Post
    And just because you don't like something it doesn't automatically make it bad.
    It does to me. Are we pretending to write an academic thesis or just sharing personal opinions? I'm in the later.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    The Azzarello run was not the worst period. It's being panned for three things, specifically, that rarely get clearly articulated. Aside from these four things, it was absolutely brilliant - the most imaginative run, since Marston's!

    1) Combination of agonizingly slow-paced storytelling and very little action
    2) Giving Wonder Woman another father. Prince Theno was her father in the 1950s.
    3) Amazon sex-pirates backstory

    Worst period...how about the last thirty-some years? Especially, the Circe stories, which typically had no plot...
    Azzarello's is the most imaginative since Marston? How so? Most of it is regurgitated pucblic domain stories from any local library - with some snappy dialogue and nice art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    The Finch run. That was the true nadir for Diana in which we had a writer who seemed genuinely determined to portray Diana as a weak, incompetent idiot. All previous runs may not have been to all of our tastes, but none of them seemed like an actual attack on the character of Wonder Woman before the Finch run.
    I totally disagree. Finch's inexperience showed, but how is it an "attack on the character" to show a character struggling with all that's going on in her life?

    Azzarello's approach is much more of an "actual attack," a deliberate destruction of the female-centric foundation Marston created for her. Diana's mother as the queen of sex pirate baby killers is much, much worse than lackluster dialogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Despite all of the criticisms of Azzarello's run on Wonder Woman being valid, I still think it's really fun, and I still think it would be much more appreciated if it was out of continuity. (Like Wonder Woman Earth One or if it was at Marvel Wonder Woman MAX.) Also, I sort of liked, actually that's the wrong word, -- accepted the "Amazon Rape Pirates" retcon, because this is something the Amazons in Greek Mythology would probably do, and yes the Amazons in the Wonder Woman mythos are sort of a... more positive version of the Amazons of myth, but Azzarello's Wonder Woman is essentially a reboot, so he changed the Amazons to be more like the "historical" Amazons.
    "Historical" as written by Greek men. Think about it - would you take the Japanese accounts of WWII at face value? Wouldn't you get a better picture by talking to Chinese and Koreans, and maybe learn that the Japanese account wasn't very accurate? But, old Greek men - outsiders, with little knowledge of the actual workings of Amazon culture, and little fondness for portraying it positively - are a good source of writing a modern feminist (as it should be) version of a female superhero? It's not as if Azzarello didn't deviate from the myths such as when it came to white-washing over Heph's own transgressions (note: he didn't adopt abandoned orphans, he tried to torture his mother for all eternity).
    Last edited by Awonder; 07-17-2017 at 06:09 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I love that line.

  6. #66
    Incredible Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    I totally disagree. Finch's inexperience showed, but how is it an "attack on the character" to show a character struggling with all that's going on in her life?
    I call this an attack on character.

    IMG_0043.JPG

  7. #67
    Mighty Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    The Finches and Jodi Picoult are definitely some of the lower periods of the runs. I honestly can't think of any others that are that low.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I call this an attack on character.

    IMG_0043.JPG
    Finch wasn't the best, but I just don't see why that is that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    The Finches and Jodi Picoult are definitely some of the lower periods of the runs. I honestly can't think of any others that are that low.
    Picoult, imo, was misused. Her first comic run, and they tie her into a mini that's also tied into a year long spin off. Countdown doesn't count. It was bad for everyone. Except DiDio, because it sold well. Sadly.

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    You are right since Azzarello's WW is no where near Twilight's success. I can't speak to the quality, since I have neither read nor seen more than 5 minutes of Twilight. But, millions more know of it, for better or worse - so, does that make it better, because millions more like it more?
    Let's go back, and take a look at what someone was actually talking about...

    Quote Originally Posted by Endsong View Post
    I'm not saying that people need to share my opinion - saying that would be illogical. What I am, however, saying is that Azzarello's run met critical acclaim and bolstered the character's status to a point that it hadn't been in years. You can dislike the stories, that's fine, but to say that it was a "low point" for the character of Wonder Woman is disingenuous.
    You are talking "Popular". Which has almost nothing to do with what the post you quoted was actually talking about.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Let's go back, and take a look at what someone was actually talking about...


    You are talking "Popular". Which has almost nothing to do with what the post you quoted was actually talking about.
    And what is "critical acclaim"? Popular among critics, no? Remind me, why do I care about them? Because they write their opinion on comic web sites? Hey, I do that, too. Just not in an official capacity.

  11. #71
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    And what is "critical acclaim"? Popular among critics, no? Remind me, why do I care about them? Because they write their opinion on comic web sites? Hey, I do that, too. Just not in an official capacity.
    Which is not something your example had. At all.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Which is not something your example had. At all.
    Critics are people. People with an opinion. No more, no less. What is inarguably factually less is the number of people that like Azzarello's run when compared to the number of people who like(d?) Twilight. So, really, why are we trying to use numbers of others who like or dislike something?
    Last edited by Awonder; 07-17-2017 at 07:57 PM.

  13. #73
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Critics are people. People with an opinion. No more, no less. What is inarguably factually less is the number of people that like Azzarello's run when compared to the number of people who like(d?) Twilight. So, really, why are we trying to use numbers of others who like or dislike something?
    People who read the medium regularly enough to have an informed opinion of what makes a solid run.

    Again, those people are the exact opposite of the general public in your example.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    People who read the medium regularly enough to have an informed opinion of what makes a solid run.

    Again, those people are the exact opposite of the general public in your example.
    How do you know what any of these people have actually read? Do you know if said critics have read much of WW? If not, just because we can assume they "have an informed opinion of what makes a solid run" by reading other comics, does that mean they know what makes a good WW run? Is ignorance of the character and her history excusable just because they read other comics? Maybe I've read more than them, so you should value my opinion more, right?

    Nor do you know the vast majority of the general public. I happen to know some very intelligent, and well read, Twilight fans. They, too, have an opinion - an opinion shared by a great many more people. They may not all be official "critics," but, then, critics are still just people with an opinion.

    Let me put it this way - when it comes to movie reviews, whom do to listen to more: an online "critic" or friends and family?
    Last edited by Awonder; 07-18-2017 at 01:07 AM.

  15. #75
    Mighty Member Thor2014's Avatar
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    I'm leaning towards the finch run. Azzarello's run was at least well-executed for what it was. My biggest problem with Azz's run is that Diana was regulated to a supporting character during much of it, especially in the first year. I just could not get into the Finch run at all.

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