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  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    That is my point...Marvel is biased,and seems to have changed the way they present political issues in their books with an even harder bent towards the Far Left...and they seem either unwilling or unable to present a fair and balanced political viewpoint that doesn't enrage or piss off the fanbase. I have no problem with political issues being presented in comics...its just that I would like to see Marvel be more subtle about it instead of flagrant...and to present a balanced view instead of a rose-colored Far Left view.

    I'm not seeking Anti-SJW points or anything like that...I just don't like Marvels current direction and the way they appear to be pushing identity politics and Far Left issues as if they are the most important things effecting our world and country at this time. Marvel does not talk about ending war,poverty,homelessness or pollution...they over emphasize race and gender issues over and over again while ignoring far greater issues and problems.

    If Marvel and its Far Left messaging is your cup of tea...then fine, but in the long run it is not doing Marvel any favors and they are just pissing off and alienating fans who don't lean that way and have little to no desire to see these things in a comic book about Superheroes Vs. Supervillians. This heavy push towards Far Left messaging is having an effect that is leading to Marvels lower sales and bleeding of readership...we can see it's negative influence upon the industry as a whole from month to month.

    Sure...Marvel's Far Left messaging is not the only thing causing problems for Marvel at this time...but it sure isn't doing them any favors either.
    It's really not my cup of tea, I find the Superwoman book featuring Lana Lang as that character to uphold feminist ideals in a far better manner than what I've seen from Marvel. Its why its on my pull list and not something like JaneThor.

    My point is its not every book, honestly its not even half given the glut of Marvel titles. Nor was it their previous event Civil War 2, which had a strong theme of not persecuting people for thought crimes, which is a position most centrist anti-SJWs would agree with from my experience. There's books like Black Bolt and Scarlet Witch without that heavy left bend to my knowledge or books like USAvengers that handle the politics with a more even hand, this being based mainly off word of mouth, as I simply cannot buy everything I would like to at once, but those are on my radar for future purchases. There's really enough Marvel titles for at least a dozen books on a pull list that are really solid, quality books.

    I recall seeing in a comment section for a review of Astonishing X-men that Rogue and Bishop kissing is SJW. Which its not, its not an overt, 2 dimensional political statement, its one of many plot points in the book necessitated by the plot. That's how this reads, like an overreaction to something not to your political taste and inferring more there than there is at present

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I'm sure some of the previous themes in Marvel stories would have been viewed as pretty "Far Left" during their respective time periods.

    You are still under the impression that Marvel needs to be politically neutral like it's the Electoral College or a news organization. It doesn't. It's just a corporation driven by people who have political leanings.
    I find it odd....most places of work are made up of all kinds of different people with opposing political viewpoints...why is Marvel different in that regard? Does Marvel only hire people who are Pro-Left? While Ike Perlmutter...who no longer works there was an exception, it does make one wonder though.It can't be coincidence that everyone who works at Marvel is Pro-Left can it? Or it just that all of the higher ups are Pro-Left and everyone else below them {artists and writers} has to promote a Pro Left stance even if they are Right? Does Marvel have any writers or artists who are Republican at all? Oh well...just something to think about I guess.
    Regardless of that...no...I'm just saying for Marvel to chill out on it and stop throwing it in our faces so much all the time. We get it...Marvel favors the Left...cool, now can they just stop with the over handed messaging and just get back to writing Superhero stories? I guess after Secret Empire we will see.

  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raefe Mahadeo View Post
    It's really not my cup of tea, I find the Superwoman book featuring Lana Lang as that character to uphold feminist ideals in a far better manner than what I've seen from Marvel. Its why its on my pull list and not something like JaneThor.

    My point is its not every book, honestly its not even half given the glut of Marvel titles. Nor was it their previous event Civil War 2, which had a strong theme of not persecuting people for thought crimes, which is a position most centrist anti-SJWs would agree with from my experience. There's books like Black Bolt and Scarlet Witch without that heavy left bend to my knowledge or books like USAvengers that handle the politics with a more even hand, this being based mainly off word of mouth, as I simply cannot buy everything I would like to at once, but those are on my radar for future purchases. There's really enough Marvel titles for at least a dozen books on a pull list that are really solid, quality books.

    I recall seeing in a comment section for a review of Astonishing X-men that Rogue and Bishop kissing is SJW. Which its not, its not an overt, 2 dimensional political statement, its one of many plot points in the book necessitated by the plot. That's how this reads, like an overreaction to something not to your political taste and inferring more there than there is at present
    Although I do believe Marvel is pushing a lot of heavy Far Left political messages in their books...it does not mean just because I interpret those things differently than yourself that they are not there at all.Or...that it's all just in my head.Many, many other people daily comment on Youtube,Facebook,Twitter, etc. that they also are seeing the same messaging as myself.Some people see the Marvel SJW messaging...and some do not...it doesn't mean it isn't there just because you interpret it differently than others do. What is obvious is the fact that many readers are seeing messages in Marvel comics which they do not like and that they feel are being heavily pushed upon the readership at this time.IMHO it would be in Marvels long-term business interest to just keep politics out of the books or too at least make it more subtle and not so blatant in execution.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    Although I do believe Marvel is pushing a lot of heavy Far Left political messages in their books...it does not mean just because I interpret those things differently than yourself that they are not there at all.Or...that it's all just in my head.Many, many other people daily comment on Youtube,Facebook,Twitter, etc. that they also are seeing the same messaging as myself.Some people see the Marvel SJW messaging...and some do not...it doesn't mean it isn't there just because you interpret it differently than others do. What is obvious is the fact that many readers are seeing messages in Marvel comics which they do not like and that they feel are being heavily pushed upon the readership at this time.IMHO it would be in Marvels long-term business interest to just keep politics out of the books or too at least make it more subtle and not so blatant in execution.
    Reading the equivalent of an extensive political manifesto into a T-shirt about feminism does seem hyperbolic to myself, its less about whether there's a message there and more to do with scale, one line of dialog I dislike generally won't ruin a book for me if I otherwise like it. I'm very familiar with the types of critiques your referring to, what I'm saying is not that there aren't clumsily handled political messages in the books, its hashtag notall and looking to the ones you could enjoy based on the parameters you've set instead of focusing on something you have no interest in reading as the whole picture for Marvels product.

  5. #320
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    It's interesting how someone can post dozens of huge blocks of text posts complaining about something, but not give a single example of the thing they're complaining about.

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    Although I do believe Marvel is pushing a lot of heavy Far Left political messages in their books...it does not mean just because I interpret those things differently than yourself that they are not there at all.Or...that it's all just in my head.Many, many other people daily comment on Youtube,Facebook,Twitter, etc. that they also are seeing the same messaging as myself.Some people see the Marvel SJW messaging...and some do not...it doesn't mean it isn't there just because you interpret it differently than others do. What is obvious is the fact that many readers are seeing messages in Marvel comics which they do not like and that they feel are being heavily pushed upon the readership at this time.IMHO it would be in Marvels long-term business interest to just keep politics out of the books or too at least make it more subtle and not so blatant in execution.
    Timmy, my only problem with your argument is you continue to label this all "Far Left" politics; it's not. All that Marvel is promoting, in the dozens of comics I read monthly, is diversity and feminism which are democratic ideals and a critique of shadowy corporate weasels leading us into war, which is emblematic of both the Dems and GOP.

    So I really think a lot of your arguments here are not grounded in fact. Marvel's tone may lean left but certainly not "far left". And, again, you are reading way way too much subtext into a tshirt. I understand you don't like the repeated political undertones in the comics but they are in no way the "far left propaganda" you keep trying to make them out to be.
    I miss Kevin Nichols. Not as much as bacon, but still...

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    I understand you don't like the repeated political undertones in the comics but they are in no way the "far left propaganda" you keep trying to make them out to be.
    He says in his post that some see what Marvel are doing and some do not, so he's aware that, depending on how you perceive it, it might not matter a great deal to some like you (or even me)

    It sounds like he watches the likes of Youtubers like ''Diversity and Comics'', ''Captain Cummings'', ''Blah Freaking Blah'' etc, who preach endlessly about the evils of ''SJW Marvel''. I see these guys highlighted on other forums I frequent constantly, usually at the expense of better things to discuss.

  8. #323

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    Some messy thoughts on the topic.

    I'm interested in politics and interested in comic books so the intersection is a fascinating topic for me. It's a little difficult since I'm a registered Republican, and there aren't that many writing comics, or discussing it articulately. We've had left-leaning pop culture discussion sites (The Mary Sue, Comics Alliance) but few places that I'm aware of for intelligent discussion on this with a conservative bent. I've seen some pandering to the far-right, but that hardly counts as intelligent.

    In this community, one of the things that's needed is a more articulate conservatism. Liberal fans outnumber conservative fans, so there has to be a greater effort to communicate ideas since the majority in most forum is going to have completely different frames of reference. Plus, as a conservative, I should hold my side to a higher standard than the people who already suffer the disadvantage of holding the incorrect views.

    There are some specific difficulties with political discussions.

    One thing to keep in mind is that some issues that are controversial aren't going to fall neatly on a left-right spectrum. In addition, there will be instances in which people who tend to be on the left will have legitimate grievances (representation and legacy characters comes to mind.)

    One problem that I've noticed is premature complaints. So there's an interview where it's said that Peter Parker will briefly be seen wearing the "Ask me about my feminist agenda" T-shirt, and conservatives started complaining about what that means and some of the issues they have with people who identify themselves as feminists. However, most of us are going to agree with things considered feminist by extremists (IE- we probably all think women should be allowed to drive.) If there's a concern about whether Peter will say something that has debunked (IE- suggesting that the majority of the wage gap between men and women can be fixed by government intervention in the private sector), it can be argued about when it happens, or when a writer/ editor says something controversial/ ignorant. We don't have to jump the gun, but unfortunately when things are ambiguous, there's a tendency to go for the least-generous interpretation.) A lot of it is signaling rather than substance (and if someone sees the T-shirt as an example of signalling, they can at least clearly articulate that rather than making generic screeds against SJWs.)

    Signaling is part of tribalism, which is a further difficulty. Liberals jump on conservatives, and vice versa, both sides usually ignoring bad arguments on their own end (unless they're arguing among themselves about who is more pure.) I'm not saying everyone is obligated to pile on whenever a dumb comment is made, but when someone says something stupid and wrong, a few others should let him know.

    It's not a completely level playing field. One complicating factor is that claims of bigotry carry serious moral weight. It is less social acceptable to be an actual racist than to incorrectly accuse someone of racism, so the social costs are higher for being in the wrong from the right than from the left, at least in this particular environment and context.

    There are serious stakes in political arguments. We need to balance respect for a pluralistic society with our legitimate beliefs that if our preferred policies are not followed, many people will die/ fail to reach their full potential. The people who disagree on a topic, either from the left or the right, feel the same way, in that they do typically want what's best for most people; the disagreement is how to get there. Some of the arguments can be resolved with facts. Some come down to competing first principles, and are not resolvable.

    The stakes apply even in arguments about pop culture. Someone may hold a view that is abhorrent to you, and this is often a zero-sum game, in that if one side gets what they want, the other side gets less of what they want. But the ensuing discussions will have to be polite. We should show the same courtesy to others that we would expect to be shown if we're in the wrong.

    A 20 page comic that can be read in 10 minutes, much of which will be devoted to action set pieces and character interactions, is probably not the best place to tackle the specific of complex political issues. It's not going to be where you can have nuanced discussions of policies where intelligent well-meaning people will disagree (surge pricing, sex ed in schools, capital punishment, medication for pre-pubescent trans children) especially with evidence on both sides.

    There is also always the concern that writers/ editors can abuse their ability to shape outcomes of stories to make up worlds in which their views end up having the best results. A liberal writer can have a supervillain just like the Koch brothers, while a conservative could depict an alternate future in which the economy goes downhill due to efforts at preventing global warming. This is one more thing to be wary of, although there is no simple solution. Politics is a part of life, so stories will inevitably touch on political issues. A lot of it will come down to the self-control for the writers and editors, as well as how they respond to incentives, but as readers, we also have to consider the behavior/ actions we're rewarding.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    True...but he waited until the Presidency was over before he finalized his story and had it published so he could accurately determine who would be President....
    How do we know that? Has Spencer gone on record of that somewhere?

    40778pt2...he also had Hydra Cap give a speech in the recent issue of Captain America # 25 taken from parts of speeches given by Reagan/Bush injected into it...thus again projecting his Hydra/Republicans are evil messaging in the book.[/quote]

    Has Spencer addressed this anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    And if "I am seeing Trump/Republicans in the story and characters"...so are others. Metal woman...you have just as much proof as me of what Nick Spencer was "going for" in these books, but it's awfully obvious to me what he is doing and saying.You can disagree...and that's fine.
    That could very well be, however I think it's worth noting that the Trump election is probably not the root cause of the socio-political controversy and division in the States right now; I think it exacerbated pre-existing problems (kind of a " the world was always broken" thing, to quote Zootopia). So, are we sure that it's specifically about Trump and not just about the larger issues that the current administration factors into?

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    (IE- we probably all think women should be allowed to drive.)
    Are you suggesting that men and women are equally capable of learning to drive? Far left propaganda!

  11. #326
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    Funny as a Mockinbird T-shirt joke is actually disliked.
    So a female character can not use a funny t-shirt?!
    But say if it was Peter Parker using a funny T-shirt of whatever it was okay?
    This topic in regards of Mockinbird tshirt is surprisng to me because i never thought a gag like this could be viewed as someting controversial.

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I should hold my side to a higher standard than the people who already suffer the disadvantage of holding the incorrect views.
    I'm not sure what it is that you mean.

  13. #328

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    Quote Originally Posted by nose norton View Post
    I'm not sure what it is that you mean.
    The point is that we should hold the people we agree with to a higher standard because we do not think that they have the additional burdens of defending the incorrect views, and have the brainpower to reach the correct conclusions.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    So a female character can not use a funny t-shirt?!
    A t-shirt is traditionally male attire and should not be worn by a woman. Far left ideology being rammed down our throats again!

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    A t-shirt is traditionally male attire and should not be worn by a woman. Far left ideology being rammed down our throats again!
    facepalm.jpg

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